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TAI & BAE will ink TFX agreement, Pakistan may join as partner
May 27, 2017

TAI & BAE will ink TFX agreement, Pakistan may join as partner

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and BAE Systems will ink the TFX design and development agreement they signed in January at the International Defence Industry Fair (IDEF), which is taking place in Istanbul.

In January, TAI and BAE Systems agreed to a £100 million-plus contract that will involve BAE assisting TAI with the design and development of the TFX next-generation multi-role fighter.

The Turkish language news publisher Yeni Şafak reports that the aforementioned agreement will be inked during IDEF. Yeni Şafak added that Pakistan, which had been linked to the TFX program in 2016, may sign a “goodwill agreement” and be a partner in the TFX program. Additional details were not provided.

Notes & Comments:

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has not disclosed specific plans regarding its next-generation fighter plans. It did outline on numerous occasions that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra will play a key role in bringing the program to fruition, particularly with the support of the educational facilities being raised in its vicinity as part of the Kamra Aviation City initiative. In March, the PAF’s Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman said that PAC’s future lies in manufacturing 5th-generation fighters and active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radars. However, specifics regarding partners or suppliers for the PAF 5th-generation fighter were not provided.

Although the PAF has not commented on the TFX, Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) had spoke of it on several occasions. In August, the MoDP Rana Tanveer Hussain told Pakistan’s state-owned television network PTV that Turkey requested Pakistan’s participation on the TFX. In November, the Secretary of the MoDP – Lt. Gen. (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais – told MSI Turkish Defence Review that the “details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments.” At Pakistan’s biennial defence exhibition IDEAS, TAI’s Senior Executive Vice President for Aircraft Ozcan Ertem told MSI that TAI was engaged with relevant Pakistani parties on the TFX.

In a recent interview of the MoDP at IDEF by Anadolu Agency, Mr. Hussain said that Pakistan may initially contribute with integration work at PAC, but efforts will be made to form business ties with Britain (note: the MoDP specifically named the Royal Air Force), from which point PAC will become a partner in the TFX.

The PAF’s current focus is on supplanting the remainder of its 190 legacy F-7P and Mirage III/5s with the JF-17 Thunder, its emerging backbone fighter. For the PAF, its next milestone program is the AESA radar-equipped JF-17 Block-III, which it views will be a significant addition to its fleet from 2019-2020. Besides the JF-17, the PAF leadership continues pointing towards the F-16 as a preferred off-the-shelf fighter for meeting near-term needs. The remainder, be it reports of interest in the Sukhoi Su-35 or other avenues, have been subject to secondary news reports and observer speculation.

The TFX topic is in a strange space in that while the PAF does not comment on it, the Pakistani MoDP and Turkish industry have been forthcoming about Pakistan’s engagement. Interestingly, the PAF CAS ACM Sohail Aman did tell PTV that talks for “procuring” fifth-generation fighters were underway with several countries (seemingly separate from the PAC fifth-generation fighter program). However, this does not necessarily mean that the PAF is interested in the TFX for its own fleet – PAC had manufactured parts of the TAI Anka UAV, even though Pakistan did not procure the drone.

  • Hashim Rasheed

    I believe that once the TFX program is initiated, Pakistan would be an active participant in it. There is increasing collaboration between the defense industries of the two countries, and Pakistan’s expertise with the JF-17 Block III and its integration with some Turkish systems might go a long way on this partnership. Additionally, the technologies acquired with the TFX may also be incorporated in further development of the JF-17, especially if there are any plans to incorporate stealth abilities in the Block III later.

    With a partnership, it would be obvious that the TFX would be a preferred choice for the PAF, since all its maintenance requirements would be catered for at PAC.

  • John Rue

    Pakistan can’t afford TFX program. They will be better off partnering with China.

    • Zill e Hussnain

      it is not the issue of cost, it is matter of requirments, even thought FC-31 will be ready in next few years, it is still better to explore other options, lastly, if not more, FC-31 will be as expensive as TFX

  • Aaif khan

    It seems to be a air superiority fighter. I really Hope that the engine and all the parts and subsystem will be produce in Türkiye with 100% transfer of technology.

    • MT

      Lol it’s called day dreaming. turkey at max will assemble ckd parts of engine. They have no prior r$d in turbofans so their capacity to absorb anything of turbofan is bare minimal

      • Aaif khan

        Yeah, they can’t absorb. while India is developing it’s own indigeneous engine. They buy everything. Turks are far far behind India.

        • MT

          Turkey started their first research on turbofans In 2013 while India began it’s first initiative in 1982.

          Turks Pvt sector is more into subsystem integration and product integration nd you can see that in every product made by aselsan rocketsan havelsan

          • Red Phoenix

            Turkey has achieved to produce synthetic aperture radar, FLIR camera, satcom, 170 HP engine, mission computer, guided missiles, INS-GPS, data link all along with other subsystems for ANKA UAV. On t-129, Turkey achieved to produce digital cockpit and HMDS. Meanwhile, TAI works on upgrading f-16 with viper level by developing AESA radar, EW pod(Ehpod and Mehpod). They already achieved to develop targeting pod (Aselpod), stealth coating, smart ammunition like jdam, cruise missile. Now Turkey is working with BAE just because TAI knows its limits and not to produce something inefficient. BAE will engineer a turbofan and give Turkey licence to produce and export it. Even Russia and China would go crazy just to have such a western engine capability. BAE will also construct a wind tunnel where TAI will employ 2700 engineers and share software to design stealth body. Previously, Turkey bought software from SAAB for 250 million dollars to have design capability. Turkey is also proficient at composite bodies since KALE produce f-35 parts which is composed of highest technology composites with latest production methods.

          • Aaif khan

            Leave him. Don’t compare Türkiye with India. Türkiye falls into the category of Israel and Sweden and one can write a big list of essay of the world class products they have successfully produce. on the contrary, one can write a big list of essay of the failed products/program of India that is still going on for 40 years. India falls into the category of Pakistan and Iran.
            Türkiye is rising as one of the exporter of defence products.(touching to almost billion$ mark i guess) While India will continue to rise as one of the largest importer. Leave aside export, India’s equipment will continue to be rejected by its own armed forces.
            We all know where Türkiye stands.

          • Red Phoenix

            Turkish exports worthed 200 million $ at 2012, but it reached 1.7 billion $ last year. Defence firms already signed deals more than 5 billion $ (Agosta modernization, Milgem to Pakistan, Type 214 Reis to Indonesia, light tank and armoured vehicles to Malesia, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia. India on the other hand plans to reach 2 billion $ at 2019. By the 2019, Turkey will probably reach 4 billion $ export per year.

          • TÜRKER DEMİRCAN

            Type 214 for Indonesia not signed yet but have big chance…By 2019, to reach 4 billion $ is a bit optimistic…Only could be possible if big projects like 4 x Milgem ADA for Pakistan, I-Class frigates for Saudis (not announced but done) etc happens each year…

            Visiting IDEF 17, saw that now Turkish Companies are much more focused and professional thinking on what they do…Earlier years they were excited like kids..

            Also been happy to see brothers from Pakistan…

          • Red Phoenix

            From 200 million to 1.7 billion dollars was also optimistic. State sources are flowing into military industry, it’s one of the areas AKP stresses on. Several dynamics work here: 1. Defense firms including ASELSAN are companies rather than institutions like MKE , they don’t carry bureaucratic burdern 2. Defense exports attract votes that leads AKP to attach importance 3. AKP uses political power to export arms i.e. Saudi-Qatar arm deals as a result of Syria-Iran policy 4. Customers are generally those who suffer from western sanctions 5. Turkey enjoys western technology i.e. TEI, Kale, FNSS. I actually said 4 billion just because of realism. With subsystems like pods, radars, sonars and missiles, it will definitelly surpass even Israel.

          • MT

            Just identify the number of indigenous components in those equipment.

            There is no significant research nd patent published from Turkey.
            Turks don’t even rank among top12 countries in research so it’s clear how those mtrc subsystem licensed are accounted.

            Israel is decades ahead of Turks in any field u can account

          • Red Phoenix

            A-z list of components:

            http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/capabilities/Pages/product-list.aspx

            There are 7-8 other companies but link above will take a lot of time.

            Turkish Defense Industry is not after science business, they after making money and making army more effective. I believe they are accomplishing both. These companies are no Darpa for sure, they don’t invent anything new, they are far from Darpa but they are at least following Darpa’s steps. Recently, Aselsan starts to produce anti-aircraft lasers and they are also working on Tufan railgun, Asya exoskeleton. These were Darpa projects and Aselsan has been quick to work on them. What can Aselsan do more? I think that’s good enough.

          • MT

            Research seems to happen like magic in Turkey.

            Otherwise no country can produce railgun; lasers without producing considerable research.
            Oops I remember reading the only paper from Turkey on dual pulse rocket engine which turned out to be literature review so how come Turkey producing hisar and other sam.
            You should contact those German Ukraine company who are offering those tech of hisar.

            Tai Anka uses western engine,American SATCOM, American flight control and us licensed inertial navigation system

            Most of Turkish radar r rename of American system.

            I can give you list of radar,Sam and those cruise missile including the system and components which are imported/licensed product

          • Red Phoenix

            TAI will use TEI engine on Anka but you know what? engineers say it’s thanks to General Electric partnership (I don’t care – it will make money, it will be used in Turkish army, they were not selling armed drones now it’s there, that engine will end up in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, that engine will kill US backed YPG, do you know what I mean?). Aselsan has just showcased its own satcom. Inertial Navigation info should be wrong since Aselsan produces it for a long time. Inertial Navigation production started with f-16 production at 1980’s, Aselsan licence produced that product at that time, and then Aselsan achieved to produce its own design. You can check the link above.

          • MT

            1. Right. Magical work of turkish engineering started in last 1decade without producing any measurable research prior to 2000s
            . Turks will invent a turbofan engine from heaven. No western company offer TOT for turbofan technology.

            2.. FOG, MEMS are all licensed by northrop grumman so are the radars

            3. Some of the PESA radar you mentioned are not state of art technology. Aslesan may be making them but question ll be asked on turkish indigenous radar technology since turks never made,researched or tried to make any of these stuffs in 90s.

            4. some of components are sourced from Swiss, french manufacturer. Some of the seekers imported from Switzerland while rocket tech is coming from Diehl Germany

          • Red Phoenix

            Aselsan claims to develop Kalkan, Serhat, Acar, Sarper, Alper Radars please enlighten me. What are the American products that Aselsan licence produce?

          • MT

            1. I dont see turkey making Destroyers, aircraft carrier, nuclear submarine, SAM-AAAM, Any kind of ballistice missile, anti radiation missile, QRSAM, LRSAM, AWACS Fire control radar, AESA radar, IIR-KU- KA – Aesa seeker,4th gen Fighter aircraft,
            if you set aside german licensed HISAR technology-
            Turkey still license American FOG INS seeker contrary to ones made in by TATA SED using drdo technology.

            Turkey have edge in integration of armored vehicle, artillery, imaging, FLIR- litening pods but lag behind india in all types of missile, material science, radar, sam, satellite communication, hypersonic scramjet, laser technology such as railgun. Turkish dont have their own trucks, launchers for their hisar sam which as of now depend on german Mercedes.

            Name me 3 defence product system which are made in pakistan
            Export is not the criteria as Turkey have been part of MTCR for 2decades while India joined MTCR last year. India was virtually sanctioned by west for 2decades so it could nver allow its Pvt sector to grow.

            The measure of technology can be seen from IP-Patents and research produced in turkey, india

            The difference is very significant. India can produce entire system on its own if its sanctioned by entire world that included system processor from local fabricated silicon wafer, same not true for turkey whose companies are used to license technology from nato for decades

          • Aaif khan

            Yes my Love, you are right, I support you.

      • Aaif khan

        Turks should learn something from Tejas development.

        • MT

          They had access to NATO tech since 90s. There is nothing that turks make and Indians cant.. I mean makes not assemble and integrates southkorean/german tanks, German SAM Diehl as hisar

          Turks havent ever made an aircraft let be Tejas.

          Turkish public R^D is way way below India in patent, paper published

          • Headstrong

            Why respond to an obvious troll? He’s only here to provoke and zero inputs. He even claims to be Indian! Choking the supply of oxygen by way of responses usually make these go away

          • Aaif khan

            From the first day I have been saying that I am a troller here and like you people I do not know any facts/insight about war machines and neither i have ability to absorb all these information. But still I am not down to zero level. I at least understand the idea of requirement and purposes of equipments.

          • Red Phoenix

            Turkey has tercom capability (Terraflite and Focusflite). It helps cruise missile to navigate via terrain maps database in order to avoid jamming. As far as I know India doesn’t have such capability for its cruise missiles which depends on ins/gps. https://www.stm.com.tr/en/products/terraflite https://www.stm.com.tr/en/products/focusflite
            Also Meteksan Kement works like AGM-158C LRASM check the evasive maneuvering at 2.27:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh3o96dUBfk

          • MT

            TERCOM is not some state of art technology. It s tech from 60 era and u can simulate it on your MATLAB as hobby project

            Tercom is nothing but digital altimeter with low resolution terrain map and all of the processing happen on DSP

            It’s reading for series of 2d coordinate systems of landmarks so it helps control system detect/predict/update it’s position.

            It’s nothing more than final yr engineering project. All you need is decent signal processing capability and altimeter map of the region.

            You can build a tercom correlations map of entire region and use that as to make likelihood estimate similar to Gaussian distribution for predict/update your waypoint. It’s much easier problem compared to SLAM(simulatenous localization and mapping) wher you have no prior mapping of landmarks and your observation model is also noisy(chicken and egg problem)

            Slam is used in unknown territories such as under water drone;space exploration and Mars Rover
            Agni missiles have been using tercom correlations since 90s in terminal phase to accurately traverse across waypoint

            Tercom is not fault tolerant systems. It ll fail in region where there are few landmarks,sea, desert.

            That’s why today’s navigation systems greatly rely on state of art FOG Mems such as talin produced by Honeywell.

          • Red Phoenix

            With this mentality, infrared systems are also obsolete which is misleading as it is an old system and can also be a hobby project. But IRIS-T or the one on the Thaad missile system with cooling capability is for sure state of art.

          • Red Phoenix

            Tercom and dsmacs are working with INS/GPS together, modern tercoms are much more advanced as the computer technology improves. I am totally lost on Agni using Tercom as it is a ballistic missile.

          • MT

            DSMAC is totally different piece of cake. It uses complete topographical map of region/target and can rely on any type of Seekers,IRST, active homing Radar, FLIR sensor, active imaging to achieve that

            DSMAC systems are target specific( 100 meter to 20 KM) while TERCOM is used to navigate/correct across the desired way points to range of 1000’s Km

            TERCOM is simply altitude mapping system so there is no super duper technology involved in it. The modern computer with bigger ROM/RAM and GPU can help system do more processing so the altimeter map resolution has improved.

            TERCOM uses basical digital altimeter and they work practically only up to altitude of 50/70 Km
            almost all Agni missiles uses GPS and TERCOM- correlation map ( from altimeter’s height of various landmarks at target region (100 sqKm) for MARV to correct its position during terminal phase

      • sam

        day dreaming? lol, all 240 turkish F16 fighters and 40+ egyptian f16s has been produced in turkey and all the engines has been produced by TEI,
        NOTE: produced by TEI not assembled,
        so a country who produced engines of a modern fighter 30 years ago, has the capacity to produce latest technologies.

        • MT

          Tusaş Engine Industries doesnt produce engine. producing some nuts,volts and screws for assembling american GE engine is not big deal

          • FactNoFiction

            MT you are making comments based on assumptions and without any factual basis. TUSAS Engine Industries was a former subsidiary of GE Aviation. It has several indigenous engine programs of its own in addition to licensed production of GE F110 engines.

  • Qaisar Abbasi

    It seems that civil-military conflict in PAK is widening its scope. If top PAF bosses are silent on the matter, it shows their lack of interest in the programme. A civilian minister on the other hand looks as much interested as his turkish counterpart should be.
    “HO SUKTA HE PESE PAKAR LEAY HOUN”

    • It could also be an industry-level partnership – i.e. valuable production contracts to PAC in exchange for T-129 and MILGEM sales (i.e. offsets).

  • ali amanat

    Indeed its a opportunity to join and partner such a giant and advanced project to gain more experience and to work with western companies to gain more for fuure blocks of jf 17 thunder beyond blkiii , its not a matter of money but a time saving and to get hand on sensitive western sub systems, aready we hv lost more than 70 years , did nothing just looking at others , no engine development, fire control systems weapon systems electronic suits targeting pod you can name, but result is none, our aeronautical engineers are very capable but doing nothing just sipping tea and signing leave applications and no more, unknown hands are stoping them not to do such things, wake up pls join hands with local industry and local buisness mens to join these projects , be loyal and do something for pakistan.

  • mazhar

    Now that’s the news I was waiting for and mentioned a few months ago when BAE joined TFX that it was the best time for Pakistan to Jump in this venture. Either we buy TFX or not but gaining experience in a 5th gen fighter manufacturing is priceless.

  • Red Phoenix

    Pakistan signed memorandum of understanding with Turkey to produce 4 Ada Class Milgem Ships in Karachi Shipyard and sell 52 Super Mushkak Trainer to Turkish Air Force. Source: http://www.ahaber.com.tr/ekonomi/2017/05/10/turkiye-gemi-satip-ucak-alacak

    • Aaif khan

      Yo

      • Red Phoenix

        Yo???

    • TÜRKER DEMİRCAN

      YES…Officially released by SSM (Undersecretariat for Defence Industries)…Says final contract to be signed in Pakistan at 30-June-2017, all 4 ships to be build in KS&EW

  • Shahzeb Hassan

    I hope Pakistan also join this program. ..

  • Oo

    I think TFX is an air superiority aircraft. F35 is multi role.

  • Aaif khan

    Do not distress when a man like Sohail Aman is behind the wheel. Amazing personality he is.

    • MT

      Do u seriously believe that air force chief can develop aeronautical industry once he doesn’t have sufficient cash to buy f16 without subsidy.

      I have never heard of Indians bragging abt Russian T50 program even though it’s joint partner and the reason is simple bcz India is not involved in its development .
      It’s very likely that India ll gain more 5th gen technology from T50 than turkey for whom it’s 1st attempt at development of an aircraft.

      But for our neighborhood even a story on joining a foreign platform which is at mercy of Western technology create so much noise

      Let the noise settle and be assured that pk ll buy only Chinese system given Turks equipment are liable to Western sanction

      • Aaif khan

        I assume he has a lot to say in the procurement plan of systems.
        Khair, Even Pak doesn’t buy TFX we feel happy for our brothers.🇹🇷

      • Steve

        Thanks for your divulging insider information about Turkey, Western and Pakistani intentions. Great to hear about the future of Pakistan from an Indian.

  • MT

    There is no shortcuts in learning.
    Chinese pump in mega bill $ at regression reverse engineering so no other country can grow up the ladder without indigenous r&d.

    10-15 yrs and 3-4bill $ is minimal what pak needs to develop 4th gen technology.

    Pak policy revolves around procurement
    in most areas minus nukes so don’t see pak investing such money.

    5yrs frm now china ll license 5th gen tech so what is to worry for pak

    • Steve

      Yup India will take 2 decades and $4billion to develop engine. Totally agree. That is probably why are you are begging America for engine tech as an offset to ‘transfer production line’ for F16, or French as offset to buying Rafale for $9Billion. Anyway why do Indians come and spoil every thread that’s about Pakistan’s development with singing praise about LCA and how great India is industrially. This is a discussion about Pakistan 5th generation fighter not India. We aren’t interested to hear all that on this particular thread. Please post relevant stuff. There are plenty of threads about super duper LCA where you can go and post. Bilal is much more tolerant of this sidetracking so he may not allow this post lol.

      • MT

        well we have spent the time,effort and money and we are reaping the fruits gradually.

        Offset policy helps india upgrade its technology so French have decided to put in 20% additional effort to fix our local indigenous Kaveri turbofan engine

        • ali amanat

          Lol , after two decades Keveri is still for nesting , but not for an aircraft to fly with.

          • MT

            Its afterburner performance is not up to mark with current 80 KN capacity but its very close to achieving the result with more research focused on super alloy, combustion instability and consultation from french sneckma

  • Salman

    Graced be Theresa May for pushing this forward as a gift to a neo Sultan

  • Saptarshi Dasgupta

    Bilal please post the news of Pakistan’s aquisition of 4 Milgem stealth corvettes from Turkey. It has already come in news and it has appeared in our Idrw.org wesbite too.
    http://idrw.org/turkey-signs-deal-produce-4-corvettes-pakistan/

  • Khalid Riaz

    With BAE participating, would Pakistan not face the kinds of problems it usually runs into with the US?

    • Let’s wait and see how things pan out. The TFX isn’t a singular entity, it is a collaborative effort involving several major vendors for many different subsystems. For all we know, PAC’s involvement could be confined to the areas Turkey itself is developing independently. Alternatively, the U.K. – post-Brexit – may be more liberal in its dealings, and seeing how the TFX is anchored to Turkey anyways, the addition of Pakistan may simply be viewed as a bonus. Finally, the PAF may not buy the fighter at all – choosing instead to make this purely a commercial venture.

    • T-123456

      No,all rights will belong to TAI Turkiye.

  • ali amanat

    Good brother, that what i said in my aforementioned comments,
    Thanks brother,
    Love to see your comments.

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