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The Indian Air Force pushes for additional 36 Rafale fighters
November 19, 2017
Two Egyptian Air Force Rafale fighters. Photo credit: Dassault Aviation

The Indian Air Force pushes for additional 36 Rafale fighters

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is eager to acquire an additional 36 Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters to join its 36 fighters already on order (from the $8.8 billion U.S. deal signed in September 2016).

The Times of India reports, citing Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources, that a follow-on Rafale order would cost 60% of the initial package’s value, which also includes weapon systems, India-specific customizations and a five-year support package guaranteeing an operational rate of 75%.

Although the notion of the IAF scaling the Rafale’s logistics and maintenance infrastructure for additional fighters was always plausible, the Times of India reported that the IAF presented additional Rafales as an alternative to the Sukhoi Su-57-based Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

In the beginning of August, an MoD panel had recommended that India engage with Russia in the FGFA. The FGFA has seen some consternation in India on account of the program’s potential cost, especially with the IAF still requiring specific additions (such as an active electronically-scanned array radar).

The IAF plans to station its forthcoming Rafales to Hasimara and Ambala for positioning against China and Pakistan, respectively. If New Delhi approves subsequent Rafale batches, the IAF will augment its fleets in those air bases as each one is capable of supporting two Rafale squadrons each.

The IAF is also interested in acquiring a new single-engine fighter to join the Tejas in replacing the IAF’s legacy MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets. Currently, the Saab JAS-39E/F and Lockheed Martin F-16 Block-70 are the apparent frontrunners.

Notes & Comments:

The prospect of the IAF pursuing additional Rafales was to be expected. Ultimately, the fighter had been selected under the ill-fated Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, which had envisaged the induction of 126 fighters. The Rafale was selected to fulfill that objective, though subsequent issues regarding cost had required New Delhi to eschew the MMRCA bid and pursue 36 fighters off-the-shelf.

For its part, Dassault hopes to sell as many 200 Rafales to India over the next decade (Hindustan Times). Dassault CEO Eric Trappier had hinted that subsequent orders could lead to the transfer-of-technology to enable India to take on a substantive share of the fighter’s sourcing. Besides expanding upon IAF orders, Dassault is also looking at the Indian Navy’s bid for 57 carrier-borne fighters as an avenue for additional Rafale orders in the country.

  • Shershahsuri

    Now Its time for Pakistan to go for another platform. Better go for Su-35 or old Eurofighter trache 1. Pakistan has already Mi 35 from Russia it can give confidence to both countries to step forward to the deal of Flankers. An upgraded version of Shenyang J-16 can also do.

    • jigsaw

      Guess no alarms here. In the midst of new acquisitions, it will take India another 10-15 years to induct and deploy those F-16s, these new Rafales (if ever), and FGFA.

      The only confirmed order actually is 36 rafales due from 2019 and only by 2022 will those be deployed for action. Pakistan will have moved far beyond JF-17 block 3 by then, and J-31s or another platform might be around the corner.

      Rafale is a great acquisition for India but J-31 will be more than enough to take care of this threat.

      • Lasit

        that will be a great achievement for Pakistan if they can induct J-31 before Indian Rafale, given that the second prototype of j-31 was flown last december, 2016. chinese are saying that the first production sample should be out in 2019 end or early 2020, and then they may look for a naval version.

        so how many pakistan has already ordered and what is the future plan for PAF in this regards ? i am sure that pakistan can start the induction in December 2019 and make it deployable by January 2020, and by february 2020, it will have complete superiority over all indian obsolete platforms

        i am very keen of hearing from you @@disqus_ZIgZRbyw2S:disqus

        by the way, before you respond, please read below link

        http://www.popsci.com/j-31-stealth-fighter-improved-prototype

        • jigsaw

          You’ll hear from me when you read my comment again and edit your comment about Pakistan’s possible J-31 induction.

      • Jack More

        Ok let’s see if it takes 10-15 years to induct F16 and rafale.Stay on your words.And Rafale is on follow on order so there won’t be any negotiations on that,simple order and purchase.I hope you read that contract or any related news.

        • jigsaw

          And what are your words? 10 – 15 months to induct and deploy 200 F-16s and all rafales? Reminds me of the 500 Tejas already flying for 35 years. I have all the hope here.

          • Jack More

            Good turn i must say…But remember those words.Yeah And my words are->123 Tejas by 2025(max) and mark it becoz i don’t do bla bla like 500 tejas.

          • jigsaw

            Ok. lol. My words were, i does not matter if its 123 or 12345 Tejas in service, because it will never be the weapon of choice for IAF and will never be stationed close to Pakistan or chinese border to perform any kind of air duties. It’s a dud, tech demonstrator at best – you can keep those as my exact words.

            Do stand by my words. F-16s are a long story.

          • Jack More

            Tejas is an interceptor.Now check what is its role then argue on this that where is will be placed and where not.And one interesting thing i tell you is that 2 sqdn of Tejas(along with Su30) will be placed at Jodhpur which is i guess less than 80 kms from pakistan.

          • jigsaw

            We’re all waiting. Jaldi karo.

      • Jack More

        And moving far beyond block 3..It is still on paper and will not come before 2020(mid 2019 at very best)..

        • jigsaw

          No..its on “designed” phase…didn’t you hear?

          • MT

            Contractual design with negligible technology participation of Pak

          • jigsaw

            Negligible enough for you to talk of it on every thread every time for last…10 years?

          • Jack More

            Exactly what stands for you and steve.

          • jigsaw

            ab kiya hoa

      • MT

        Block 3 is only in designed phase. Pakistani engineering has no involvement. Ball is in Chengdu. Current block 2 is inferior to Tejas mk1 in most indicators and Tejas block 2 have composites, hmds, hobs which you are not even sure in block 3.

        India have Israeli elta radar Darin upgraded jaguar certifed nd 44 ll join in 2yrs.
        HaL rolling out 8 Tejas mk1 in 2017 and their capacity to manufacturing ll jump up to 16 from 2019.
        Tejas mk1a development is at full speed and its most probably that mk1a with roll out at same time with Chengdu designed block 3.

        India ll order more rafale in future and f16 order depends upon USA technology licensing of radar/engine. Lockheed Martin can manufacture indian built f16 in 36-42 months after the contract

        • jigsaw

          Block 3 is only in “designed” phase…and what phase is that? Just curious…

          • Jack More

            It’s design Phase,I hope you understand.I also hope you understand typo.

          • Shakeel

            Does India really design things. You’d never guess! I thought you had me fooled for a second. The Indians like to blow their trumpet so much that all of their tall claims just fizzle by the wayside.I have never heard so much cobblers in my life. It’s making me fall asleep.

          • Jack More

            Yeah India never designed Mars probe.It was sent from Uganda right?

          • jigsaw

            I think the typo reflected the truth better. Because call it your lack of information or bias, the design was frozen last year. That means both the comment and you doubling that are false. Or may be you think every plane follows lifecycle of Tejas…and ever lasting design phase?

          • Jack More

            Tejas’s lifecycle is still better than chinese JF.And come above blind Supremacy,India have successfully reached mars with indigenous technology but it won’t be digested by you as according to you,Everything is made by foreign countries and Tata,Mahindra,Reliance,Isro are all hoax companies.

          • jigsaw

            Ok, calm down now.

          • little children

            spot on..

      • Logic_dominates

        IAF wants to close the deal for single engined aircraft by early next year. They sent a request to Lockheed and SAAB for request for information about how much ecosystem they create locally, technology transfer, price and India specific technologies.

        It will be decided by early next year.

        • jigsaw

          Okay thank you for that nice response. I would like to see that happen. I personally believe F-16 has a higher chance here but it could be both also. Although i don’t think they will start coming off of assembly lines and absorbed into IAF in matter of months – only years, many years.

          • Jack More

            LM already confirmed it will take them 24 months to stasrt mfg and i guess LM knows far far better.

          • jigsaw

            Again, not enough concentration from you here. LM is not the problem. I have all the confidence they can do it in 6 months. The question is how long will it take India to do it?

        • Jack More

          He won’t take it seriously so i tell you what he’s gonna comment-It’s all for “public consumption” and it will take decades to induct those jets.

          • jigsaw

            “Decades” ! So now you’re twisting my words, precisely lying about them? Whatever happened to vows of remembering them? You already forgot.

    • Jack More

      Pakistan should rather go with Mig35 as they are cheaper and have a good chance that Russia can give them.Su35 is already purchased by china so in a few years you can see a new chinese jet with same specifications so then pakistan can purchase those but for now,Mig 35 is a good option i think.

  • jigsaw

    I don’t think this kind of shaky report merits attention on Quwa. Times of india and indian media in general is notorious for throwing out military “news” every now and then for public sentiment, be it their Doklam fiasco or new acquisitions. They only do it because their public wants to hear it and they give them only what they want to hear. Tomorrow we might hear completely different story on this. They did it throughout the 15 years of MMRCA drama.

    • Shakeel

      They adhere to a policy of one size fits all. India likes to parade it’s buying power. This type of muscle mania tactic only washes with some, but not all vendors. Welcome to India’s world of pomp & show. Must admit it sometimes does work.

    • Jack More

      What doklam issue.China took their army back and agreed not to build road.They just said that they will keep patrolling that area and that’s why India took its army back because the purpose was to stop them building road and the territory is now of Bhutan’s so there is no reason for Indian army to stay there now.

      • jigsaw

        Oh so let me get this right here. So the Chinese withdrew their military and agreed flat out to Indian demands of not building the road you say, but since the Chinese also wanted to patrol the area, therefore the Indians decided that they’re getting in the way of Patrol vehicles, so they’d better just take off to make way, besides making the startling discovery that they were on Bhutanese territory?

        Hmm…that all makes so much sense, to anyone called Indian!

        • MT

          China and Bhutan used to patrol the area and the dispute is between them but indian achieved the sole objective to stop construction of road in Bhutanese territory

          • jigsaw

            Oh did you now?

          • Steve

            This is today:
            FM statement: “We will make an overall assessment of the weather conditions and all related factors, and according to the actual circumstances complete construction plans for the Dong Lang (Doklam) area,” spokesperson Hua Chunying told a daily news briefing.

            http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-08/29/c_136565604.htm

            Don’t celebrate too soon!

          • jigsaw

            Indians are lying about mutual agreement signed. The chinese side never said that and have said India unilaterally withdrew its troops. Gosh…the level of propaganda here.

          • Steve

            I agree fully. Their media are so shrill and jingoistic so as to be totally unprofessional. They routinely peddle exaggerations and outright lies. Their ‘talk shows’ and ‘discussions’ are shouting matches with personal attacks and actually embarrassing to even watch. All this actually shows the level of maturity of their public who just want this sort of ridiculous pantomime show rather than serious journalism. It’s pathetic and VERY Third World.

          • Lasit

            There is a simple solution to your confusion. You believe the Chinese statement and we will believe the Indian statement. Neither you and Chinese can prove that India is wrong nor India can prove vice versa.

            The bigger question that you need to answer on behalf of your master is, why china could not do anything for 70 days when India was occupying its so called “sovereign territory”

          • jigsaw

            Maybe you’ll go up to one of your many masters or fathers as you like to call it to get your answers. Pakistan just enjoys a mutual relation of friendship with China, haven’t you heard? Even pathetic politicians of Pakistan ruling gov have repeated those cheesy lines a number of times, but let’s just say that Pak-China friendship is decades old, not really jumping from Soviet union’s lap to Russia’s, then to israel’s and currently found in US lap, at whose sole behest this whole adventure was undertaken – india i mean here.

            Rest assured, i just bust your pack of lies and that’s something you can’t be comfortable with – as a nation. Busting your little bubbles of lies.

          • Lasit

            “Pakistan just enjoys a mutual relation of friendship with China, haven’t you heard?”- that was a really good joke and i liked it ..

            with regards to jumping laps, if i try to explain Pakistani position over its history, i will embarrass you, and anyway its way off the topic of discussion.

            the whole notion from you on china telling the truth is simply based upon what your master have said. but have you for a single moment tried to counter that?

            None of us knows the exact ground realities. we Indians have no reason to doubt the statement from our government.

          • jigsaw

            I have no reason to doubt you are a sheep that falls blindly to anything fed to it. Most indians are and never question the propaganda fed to them by the hawkish indian media at behest of the rightist govs.

            Also, have you not tried enough already? Is there something left? Let it out.

          • Lasit

            your intelligence and logical reasoning is really appalling. your argument applies to you directly, and somehow you don’t seem to have recognised it.

            anyway i will cease to argue with you. there is a saying “‘Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.'”

          • jigsaw

            So nothing left to say? What better way to end it but with some ad hominems.

          • Steve

            Because they did not want to get involved in military action with a smaller country that will be distracting from their long term goal. India is not a problem USA is. That’s why they don’t want to give USA an opening. We need Chinese commentators on quwa.

          • Jack More

            They can involve with 18 countries,they can invlove in small countries over SCS issue but they can’t do here.Don’t pretend to be a joker.Chinese so called big army was pelting stones in j&k which shows what they are.

          • Steve

            So you think you are stronger than China and they are scared of you. You’re the joker mate!

          • Steve

            They have not started any conflict in the SCS, but maybe that is lost on you. They declared in the late 20th century they did not want a war for 50 years while they built up their strength. That’s the difference between them and you.

          • Jack More

            Do you understand the meaning of official statement by Indian foreign spokesperson.You think he will lie that both “Signed” agreement.oh common,it’s not a truth and dare game.

          • jigsaw

            Yes. He is lying, so are you, so is your media, unless verified “mutually” by both sides, since it’s a “mutal” agreement according to indians – yet not verified mutually. How cute.

          • Manju

            Yes Chinese will invite you and tell that they signed an agreement..lol

          • jigsaw

            No, i’m sure 1.whatever billion indians were witness to this “secret agreement”…

            So you say it was a secret agreement signed between Chinese gov and indian gov/media/public leaked minutes later by indians…

            Hmmm…that one makes perfect sense, don’t you think?

          • Jack More

            This is the best example of saving face.What they are waiting for now..Weather..?Everybody knows this is the best time to do constructin there as winters are coming.Chinese know that everybody will forget this issue so they said they will ‘wait for weather to be good’.what a lame excuse.And yeah i will surely remind you about this road later.Definitely.

          • Steve

            They are surely waiting for BRICS summit. We will wait and watch the fun when Modi tries and fails again to declare Pakistan the ‘mothership’ hahaha.

          • Ashish Gaur

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/08/30/who-blinked-in-china-india-military-standoff/

            Week I just posted an article in Washington Post (probably you’re aware that this is US news) not Indian news.

            And now stop acting like frogs in a well and get out to know the world outside. Oh well, I’m sorry, you guys can’t cause your communist government won’t let you look outside and will block every channel which tried to show the mirror to them. And they give the lollypop to their own people by saying that they are building their own social network. WHY? Just so that they can tell their foolish people their own version of story and block them from outside world. And puppets like you will be happy.

          • Steve

            That article does not conclude anything. Read it before posting.

        • Jack More

          Chinese will patrol in their area,their side of border.Indian army went there when they started building roads.And write my comment properly.China and India signed Agreement that Both will take their troops back and China will not make road there but can patrol in their side of border as they used to do before.China is saving face now..And yeah as per you,If India “surrendered” then why they made an agreement…To play Sudoku..?

          • Steve

            So you agree that you intruded in Chinese territory? That’s what the Chinese were saying all along. China has shown remarkable restraint. They are thinking of the next 25 years and don’t care much about getting into a fight with India, as it will distract them from their goal of being No.1 in the world. I hope you guys don’t let your jingoistic media and hardline politicians make you overstep and get into something damaging for you.

          • Jack More

            It’s china who were building roads and that road passes through Doklam which is Bhutanese territory.So India went Inside china just to sopt construction of that road.They Stopped construction now and agreed not to build road there and now saving face in Media.Else everybody know what china was doing since last two months like-we will attack you today,tommorow,this sunday,on independence day etc etc.But what happened now..?Why they stopped building roads now if they think they won.

          • jigsaw

            Reading through your first hilarious comment, i don’t think Chinese are doing face saving here. That is the whole problem with you as an Indian. I’ve seen much mature response from the Chinese here that they want to put behind the crises even while its peoples are not too happy with how the conflict ended, but all i see in Indian media is endless fabrications and propaganda, a clear example of which you put out here that the Chinese side surrendered to Indian demands and withdrew. I mean you really think these clownish statements really sell anywhere outside India, for that matter only Indians support and upvote such fabrications. Here’s how the world sees it: Indian military that aggressed into Doklam has after 2 months or so pulled back even while making much noise on it will never withdraw, and Chinese troops are still there and continue to patrol the area. I mean you don’t patrol the area with doctors now do you? Since the land belongs to Chinese, and India has pulled back as expected, I doubt your statement that Chinese cannot station their troops in their own land. I mean do you even think before you write.

            But all that is not my concern. For all i know and said, India will eventually pull back one way or another and that is what has happened here. If an Indian comes up to me and tells me their valiant forces forced Chinese military to go down on its knees to sign an agreement in favour of Indian demands and pulled back its troops on fearful sight and demands of Indian, whereas India didn’t withdrew at all…No. I don’t think i buy those clownish news.

            From what i hear, China seems to have stated that India unilaterally pulled back and that was its only option whereas chinese troops remain stationed there to patrol and perform duties as normal.

            That is what has happened but you can continue to preach Indian version of events here because you are allowed to – just don’t call it absolute truth.

          • Steve

            We are beginning to repeat ourselves by answering multiple brainless posts. Let’s give it a rest and agree that this ‘agreement’ is mystery as well, like ‘surgical strikes’ mystery. Anyone noticed that anything India does is a mystery with nothing clear, except to their media, who always declare ‘victory’! LOL.

          • jigsaw

            True. The pain basically is, how dare you expose our lies.

          • Manju

            As far as my experience goes, It’s hard to reason with some people. We know and the world knows what India achieved in Dokhlam. No need to prove it to anyone.

          • Jack More

            True.

          • Steve

            Yes india achieved a lot of praise in its own press only, nothing else. Of course India’s clueless public hungry for a victory after centuries of humiliation believe anything, as long as they can start ecstatic celebrations. Why do you behave like that?

        • Jack More

          The agreement they signed is “Expeditious Disengagement of Border Personnel” – meaning – an
          AGREEMENT between TWO parties to WITHDRAW forces.

          • jigsaw

            Hi, I’m calling your bluff, as it is again the Indian version you have pasted here and are propagating. There is no such official statement from Chinese on mutual agreements. Read through this press conference. I could have accepted your view but what you are trying to say here is that India has barred China from stationing its troops on its own land or carry out operations there. Now that’s ridiculous. No one will accept that logic.

            Q: The Indian side said that it is a “mutual disengagement”. Do you agree with that?

            A: What I want to stress is that the Indian side withdrew all its border personnel and equipment that were illegally on the Chinese territory to the Indian side. The Chinese personnel onsite have verified this situation. The Chinese border troops continue patrolling the Dong Lang area. China will continue fulfilling its sovereign rights to safeguard territorial sovereignty in compliance with the stipulations of the border-related historical treaty. In the meantime, in light of the changing landscape on the ground, China will make necessary adjustments and deployment as it sees fit.

            http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/t1487932.shtml

          • Jack More

            Chinese were building roads and that’s why India deployed its army there.Now china agreed they will not build roads So india took its army back.But yeah you can live in dreams of Supremacy of your master which is saving face now in their media.

          • Steve

            Where did China “agreed they will not build roads” lol

          • Jack More

            So you think china is still building roads.Really,Maybe some invisible road.Mark it->China is not gonna build road in doklam area and they are saving face now after 70 days of shameful daily warnings.

          • Steve

            Only time will tell if the road will be built or not. India has vacated Chinese territory and with it surrendered any leverage they had. Logically China can do what they want.

          • Jack More

            Yeah Time will tell for sure but according to Present time where we live They have stopped construction and that’s more than enough to understand what happened.India vacated because it’s Bhutan’s territory(still India’s one division is there to look after china)

          • jigsaw

            But you’re not listening and going on and on and on with your master claptrap for all your personal little ego satisfaction. You are propagating disinformation coming fresh off Indian media only. It does not count. There is nothing like that reported except in Indian media, about mutual agreements or if they will stop construction of withdrew their troops.

            And you’re boring me now.

        • STAN

          These people are unwilling to consider the fact that their government or media is capable of lying…….as bad as our present condition is atleast we don’t take everything that is dished out by the government or Pakistani media as a word of bible

          • Jack More

            As about Indian media,they quoted what defence ministry have officially said, Defence ministry already cleared that China will not build road in doklam.Now if you think defence ministry is lying then i can’t argue further but yeah time will tell you if china does that in future or not.

          • Steve

            Welll said…STAN the MAN!

    • Jack More

      And i agree with you that Quwa published this news instead of latest Lch and Advanced Hawk which was officially confirmed news.strange..!

      • jigsaw

        They’re all strange and for public consumption, just like your previous comment on Doklam.

        • MT

          Arun Jaitley inauguration of indigenous LCH factory and local production of astra missile is for public consumption while Pakistani 58% airframe assembly is milestone

          • jigsaw

            No i’m sure inauguration of a factory is a much bigger milestone than 58% (or even 100%) production of an in-service fighter jet.

          • MT

            Factory was put in place after decade of development undertaken for LCH and astra missile by DRDO labs nd concerned Pvt sector partner’s
            Most of u had written off lch nd it’s primitive basic Dhruv helicopter while Astra was always criticized for delay. Finally all the flaws resolved.

            Fuselage manufacturing using imported machines from imported duralumin aluminium alloy slabs is the first stage of aeronautics engineering.

            Most of the members ll agree that 58%workshare for jf17 is only related to fuselage.

          • jigsaw

            Dont you have anything else to talk about except copying pasting the same stuff over and over again? You sound like a spam bot to me.

            Talk about something else now.

          • Jack More

            Ok noe i’m eager to know from which,LCH and Astra missile are copied.Please reply with proof.

          • jigsaw

            Ok, but i’m not so eager to take these cliches any further into a full blown discussion as always. Here is the rule of thumb for assessing indian defence articles:
            -Majority are directly imported.
            -Minority are locally assembled/manufactured with extensive foreign help usually coming from Russia, Israel, France, or US lately.
            -Critical components are always sourced from one of countries with actual know-how.

            As for your specific mentions, i will not act as Google for you. Do a search yourself, there’s plenty “proof” to poof it all.

          • Steve

            Well said. I too don’t want to waste time answering jingoistic ridiculous Indian assertions.

          • Jack More

            No just provide a proof.Don’t run away.I really want to know from which country,India bought Astra missile.

          • Steve

            I hope you have the sense and openness to admit you are lying, or at best misinformed and jingoistic. The article is by a Hindu so should be unbiased in your view.
            https://www.defensenews.com/air/2016/12/19/indian-astra-missile-still-needs-russian-tech-to-find-targets/

          • Jack More

            That is why i tell you everytime to keep yourself updated.India already made its seeker and tested successfully in April this year.

          • Steve

            Look I’m bored with all this now. Talk to us when you get this weapons accepted and deployed. Tested means nothing.

          • Jack More

            There are many deployed and accepted but the fact is you don’t wanna listen.If something India made passes the test then it is purchased from foreign and if it fails then it was indian technology that failed.Astra is already in production fyi.

          • Jack More

            And I really liked your argument,Majority like INS Arihant nuclear submarine,INS VIkrant AC,Frigates,Destroyers,Naval Ships,Missile Boats,Dhruva helicopters etc are directly imported.You know this is the best example of running away.Now Don’t Hide your Face and Tell me the origin of Astra missile.Russia,france,USA or Itly.Waiting.

          • jigsaw

            Refer to steve’s comment.

          • Jack More

            wow.collaboration.funny.

          • jigsaw

            Major and critical weaponry will always be imported in india. Here there a few local programs with foreign help can keep on amusing us.

          • Jack More

            Hahaha you made my day.

          • jigsaw

            Was it his english?

          • Steve

            How much of LCA is foreign. Engine, avionics, weapons etc. Including “collaboration”. Be honest.

          • Jack More

            Design is indigenous.OBOGS system is pure indigenous.FBW system is pure indigenous,HMDs are pure indigenous,Mission Computer is pure Indigenous,Software is pure indigenous,It’s simulator is pure indigenous, total airframe and composites are indigenous,Electronic systems are pure indigenous,Lnading gear is pure indigenous,Astra missile is pure indigenous,Actuators are Pure indigenous,The Ejection system canopy is pure indigenous.I hope got the answer.and yeah now you can change the topic.

          • Steve

            No need to get hysterical. Your post makes me worry about your health. You will next Start on individual parts of the airframe and send a list lol. Hmm let’s see. Most important parts are engine and radar. They are “pure” indigenous too are they? Lol

          • MT

            Minor changes

            HMD is Israeli. Ejection seat is British and canopy is Canadian

          • Steve

            Thanks for admitting the above. There is no shame in that. I only have a problem with lies.

          • MT

            India have developed ecosystem to build 4th gen tech.canopies and ejection seat wre made in India but HAL wants the best quality stuffs so they chose Martin Baker seats.
            pak and indian aeronautical industry have difference goals.

            Indians design,invest in local r&d, build the product, certify test nd later manufacture it with other imported subsystem.

            Pakistan invests in certified tested product, buys it and party assemble it .

          • Steve

            You are backtracking now and as the saying goes; ‘when in a hole stop digging’. Stop embarrassing yourself.

          • Jack More

            Read carefully i wrote Ejection system of Canopy not the Canopy as whole.This system is used to open Canopy in fraction of second in emergency.

          • Jack More

            I never wrote ejection seat is Indian.About HMDs,I agree i misplaced this on AFCS.

          • Jack More

            About LCH,it is more indigenous than Tejas,Lch was designed totally indigenously after Kargil war.It took 9 years which is a usual time if you do it indigenously.It’s engine is made in India and that is the only collaboration with france(New Engine is also being developed by India).Rest everything is indigenous as USA wasn’t supproting India and Russia wanted to sell their own attack heli.I hope you digest it.

          • Steve

            Everyone builds fuselage and buys engine from America/France, calls it ‘collaboration’, and radar from Israel. Start boasting when you make those two things. You are otherwise no better than Turkey or Pakistan .

          • MT

            Hold on..

            Chinese using similar french engine in their combat helicopters.
            but they are ahead of India

            China >> India >Turkey>> Pakistan

            Turkey has much more experience with assembly of f16 nd manufacturing parts but they haven’t ever designed/manufactured an aircraft.

            Pakistan is a new entrant and it hasn’t invested in aerospace r&d

          • Jack More

            But not everybody can design everything with all parameters.Not everybody have more than 105 defence Labs in their country not everybody have their own working prototype of both helicopter and Fighter jet engine.By the way drdo just released a video of making of GaN panels for GaN radar so i can now expect that this was copied or taken from some xyz country right?

          • Steve

            105 low standard defence labs are still low standard, and can’t design anything OF QUALITY. No matter if 105 or 1005!

          • Jack More

            There i understand what you really wanna prove.Thank you.

          • Steve

            India can’t build engine.
            India can’t build AESA.
            Rest is all hot air and empty boasts.
            Simple…

          • Jack More

            India already build Kaveri’s core and that can be used in fighter jets(without afterburner) with a cost of 1/17th of what china did even after copying.India already build Uttam AESA radar tested on a testbad mounted on dhruv helicopter.Now they are integrating it to Tejas mk1 P8 model for Mk1A.You should seriously keep yourself updated…(also DRDO earlier this year released video of making of Panels for GaN AESA radar i hope atleast you know something about this)

          • jigsaw

            Read through this article before talking about Tejas any further.
            http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm

          • Jack More

            OK first thanks for posting a 2001 article written by a person who was russian lobbyist but leaving it,I reply you->He stated that India bought f404 Ok it’s True.No problem.Next he stated that radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti,Wrong..drdo approached Ericson for radar but did not buy because when they saw its specs they decided that they can use local made and then it’s locally build by national aeronautics limited in India(hyderabad division)Next he says Wind tunnel testing done in USA,Russia and France,Half info->Wind tunnel testing was done in USA and India(video available at natgeo).follow on->

          • jigsaw

            I’m into percentages. I’ve already told you rule of thumb there. It applies to everything without exception. Unless you can change that fact, there’s no need to discuss anything here. Your facts, your figures, work for you – good for you. But there’s clear disagreement between you indians on general acceptance and perception of domestic military projects. How is that Pakistan’s problem?

          • Jack More

            Next he says that design from British Aerospace, Avion
            Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace.Wrong..Only Dassault helped and not in design but project definition stage and dassault left the project in 1988 at the time of completion of Project definition stage.Then in same year when dassault was leaving, They had offered an analogue flight control system (FCS), but the ADA recognised that digital FCSs would supplant it and nal was given this task.Next he says cfc composite panels taken from itly but it’s not a big deal to but a type of material with given specifications but even this news is total lie.Before this Tejas project,India already have cfc metallurgical tech which finds customer from japan and US so this news doesn’t seems to be true at all.Next and last he says that FBW from LM,Yes LM was involved in FBW system development but they left this project in mid-way because of 1998 Nuclear test Sanctions so the work was again done by Nal’s claw team.

          • Jack More

            So i provided you all the events that should now clear the fog around the confusion.Yeah,i won’t expect you to believe in this or not but i wrote what is officially true instead of any random personal opinion.You can check all these things on websites with official confirmation attached. Tejas is 75 percent indigenous(by value as of july,2017 officially) and digest the fact.

          • Jack More

            And one more thing,ADA is right now designing MK2 so i request you to provide some info on from which country now ada is taking help in designing so later i don’t see some random article on some random news website.Also i urge you to please please tell me from which country India took help in designing AMCA(I hope you know it’s design is completed).Thank you.Waiting.

          • Steve

            Yeah right! Like Kaveri engine design was “complete” 20 years ago!

          • Jack More

            Ok so they made a 1:12 model on assumptions right? They made surpentine intakes without completing design right? And Defence ministry sanctioned all money required for the complete project(app. 9B) without design right? Prat and whiteny delivered F414 without design confo right? Hal ordered wheels and tyres for MK2 just to use them in Motorcycle right? Hats off to you really.

          • Logic_dominates

            P&W delivered F414, are you being sarcastic or ignorent? GE is the manufacturer of F414.

          • Jack More

            Kaveri was completed not 20 but 10 years ago.It also gives adequate thrust but the only problem was noise at afterburner stage and Even french scientists didn’t understood why this happens? But atleast GTRE made 6 working prototypes that can run without afterburner and test successfully.And today i realized that you don’t even know Kaveri have 6 working prototypes,according you you,It is stilll in design stage which never completed hah.

        • Jack More

          There is something called Official..I hope you know the meaning.DM officially inaugurated these things-(1)LCH Production (2)LR-SAM Project(3)Astra bvr missile phase2 production (4) Delivered Advanced combat hawk aircraft to IAF.

          • jigsaw

            Ok congrats, after all, all big achievements come with big help, foreign !

          • Jack More

            Yeah everything is foreign except your super jet jf17 which is pure indigenous.And about Tejas,It is 70% indigenous but its total waste to argue on this as you live in fever of supremacy of your master.

          • Steve

            70% vs 58%? Is that something to start hysterical celebrations about?

          • MT

            70%indigenous by total systems

            Vs 58 % airframe which ll b approximately10% of total systems value.
            (Assuming airframe cost 20% of aircraft price)

          • Jack More

            He is not gonna waste time on loosing argument yeah he will waste on super jet jf17 made indigenously.Even mission computer,FBW system,HMD’s,landing gears,engine,ejection seat,radar,datalink,programming are all done indigenously.Even they are making and testing block 3 in Karachi indigenously.

          • jigsaw

            Man you are one serious Indian troll. Really! And your approach to such forums is absolutely shameful. Not only you are misinformed yourself but you also misinform other people who might want to come here to know something. Now you are blatantly lying about JF-17 over and over again. Go to PAC website and see what is the official statement of Pakistan on the JF-17 program – if it’s ever claimed indigenous or a JV. PAC will not misuse the word indigenous to hide some failures like HAL or DRDO or ADA or indians like yourself are doing. The only reason this mantra of 60%, 70% indigenous was created in India was to hide colossal failures of these organizations and to get some sense of achievement. Otherwise, by definition indigenous means 100% local – not 50%, not 60%!

            Now stop trolling and give sanity a chance.

          • Jack More

            Everybody knows what pakistan claims the so called first indigenous fighter jet of pakistan jf17.Even US don’t manufacture 100% things in their country so that means USA don’t have indigenous things and US copies or purchases from an alien country according to your logic.

          • jigsaw

            I’m getting a low brainpower red alert on my system here on that comment of yours. Let’s just let it go with a little education for you. US, France, Russia are the only 3 countries in the world that can design and deploy an actual world class working fighter from A to Z without needing foreign technology or help. No other country can, but no other country is bluffing itself either except one.

          • Jack More

            China i guess.But you now should seriously improve gk.India says Tejas is indigenous jet now do some research on this term.

          • Jack More

            By the way i can assume something interesting about you with your definition of ‘indigenous’. One more example->Saab Gripen uses 70% foreign parts(75% by value) so using your logic That is not sweden’s indigenous jet but copied or purchased right?

          • jigsaw

            I know about Gripen more than you can imagine. Don’t want to say how. But Sweden does not call it indigenous. They’re also above all this trickery of words. Much like any other nation with real focus on results. But hey Gripen works at the end of the day. The one you’re referring to is only trying to – sadly the only help it has is from loud Indians like you, not from the industry.

          • Jack More

            Yeah only trying to.After completing more than 4000 flight hours without a single glitch it is still not able to fly according to you.And you should check Saab’s official site to realize your comment where i imagined how much you know about Gripen.And sadly Tejas parts are manufactured by Private Industries in India hope didn’t know it before commenting about help from industry.

          • jigsaw

            Pakistan never claimed JF-17 to be indigenous nor was that the intention. It has been said at least a thousand times here it was and is a JV with Pakistan manufacturing and absorbing a lot of tech over the years. Get your facts and figures right before taking it out with little taunts of yours.

  • Qasim57

    The Pakistani Airforce chief has publically stated that they’re looking to get another fighter type to supplement our existing fleet. Wonder what it’ll be, most likely Russian or Chinese – SU-35, J-31?

    Hope Quwa does an article on it!

  • Jack More

    Admin you made a little mistake here.Hal is not developing Tejas Mk2.Hal is developing Tejas mk1A and ADA is developing Mk2.

  • sami shahid

    Pakistan should spend its money on JF-17 so that all of our F-7’s & Mirage 5’s can be replaced. After inducting at least 150 JF-17 PAF should spend the same money on its front line aircraft. For eg it can buy new F-16 , SAAB Gripen , MIG 35 or FC-31.

  • Steve

    Please provide a link to both items:
    “AF will induct at least 126 rafale and 350 SU-30MKI”, or else whatever you are saying is nothing but hot air. Proper news preferably neutral or agency output please, not wishful blogs written by Indians, or jingoistic shrill Indian media.

  • Headstrong

    Not necessarily. Reports of both Boeing, Dassault and Saab working towards demonstrating F/A-18, Rafale-M and Sea Gripen respectively in STOBAR configuration, which would work for Vikrant and point towards the plans for IAC-2.
    Imo, the main hurdle to induction of any of these would be the size of the hangars. Rafale-M doesn’t have foldable wings, and F/A-18 is slightly larger than the size of the hangar on Vikrant. Some solutions being worked for that as well – for example, inclining the aircraft to reduce wing span, etc

  • Karly Johnston

    More Rafale is “the alternative to the Su-57.” FGFA is cancelled if more Rafale are purchased. IAF does not have the budget for both.

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