1036Views 48Comments
NORINCO VT4 in Pakistan for trials
Photos emerged of a NORINCO VT4 main battle tank (MBT) in Pakistan, ostensibly for trials for an off-the-shelf MBT procurement to complement the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) al-Khalid-series.
Revealed at Eurosatory 2012, the VT4 is among the newest of NORINCO’s MBT offerings. Drawing upon the company’s experience in armour technology, drawn in great part from the ZTZ-99 MBT in use by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), NORINCO markets the VT4 as a modern and cost-effective MBT.
The VT4 weighs 52 tons and is powered by a 1,200 hp diesel engine. It is armed with a 125 mm smoothbore main gun, a roof-mounted 12.7 mm machine gun and a 7.62 mm machine gun.
Thailand was the launch customer of the VT4, having ordered 28 tanks for reportedly $150 million U.S.
In addition to the VT4, it is expected that the Pakistan Army will also evaluate the Malyshev Factory Oplot-P MBT from Ukraine. In a press-release from August 2017, the Malyshev Factory said it was preparing a unit for trials in Pakistan for an active tender. The Oplot-M/P weighs 51 tons and it is powered by the 6TD-2 diesel engine, which has an output of 1,200 hp.
Details regarding this tender have not been disclosed by the Pakistan Army, NORINCO or the Malyshev Factory. However, in an interview with the Ukrainian newspaper Delovaya Stolitsa, Pakistan’s Ambassador to Ukraine Maj. Gen. (retired) Athar Abbas said Pakistan could procure at least 100 tanks. This would be the second time these two MBT platforms are tested in Pakistan, with previous trials occurring in 2015.
In December 2017, HIT informed Pakistan’s Senate Standing Committee on Defence Production that its al-Khalid MBT output was below its capacity – i.e. at an average of 18 tanks per year against the annual capacity for 50. HIT cited budgetary issues as the cause. HIT also announced that it was proceeding with the al-Khalid II, the first major platform upgrade of the al-Khalid-series.
48 Comments
by Aamir
Hopefully we select the Oplot and not the VT4. Sadly all Chinese tanks bought (except the T 59) have been well below par.
by Faisal
I hope they dont end up being like Z-10 choppers. Chinese stuff has still not achieved the level of quality that would make Pakistan comfortable placing their hardware against India.
by Joseph
Actually according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_generation
T-84 Oplot is considered as third generation, VT4 is considered as third generation advanced or next generation tank. The Ukraine equivalent of VT4 would be T-Rex, but development of T-Rex is just announced.
T-84 seems to be older design, than again sometimes old designs are more “proven”.
Anyway, I know more about missiles and aircraft, less about tanks and ships.
by Joseph
According to Thailand’s experience: https://sputniknews.com/military/201701111049480707-thailand-cancels-ukraine-tank-deal/ Ukraine T-84 Oplot had both quality and delivery issues. It does look like Ukraine defense industry is currently in poor state.
I think Pakistan should also consider Russian T-14 Armata, which claimed to be the first 4th generation MBT in service.
by Hashim Rasheed
The VT-4 is has a 1200hp engine, which would be less powerful than the Al-Khalid-II, which is primed for a 1500 hp engine. And there are supposed to be more changes to the Al-Khalid-II to make it cater to the future requirements of the Army. How would the VT-4 compare with that? On the outset, it looks to be an inferior machine than the proposed Al-Khalid-II.
The current situation with the US should be taken by Pakistan as an opportunity to knock on the doors of other arms suppliers, such as Germany and France, to meet the future needs of the Pakistan Army for high-tech acquisitions. Even Russia can be looked at as a source of advanced hardware.
by Joseph
German Leopard 2A7+ is a 3rd generation advanced MBT, according to wikipedia Leopard 2 seems to be quite popular internationally (sold to more than 15 countries, even Turkey has it), but I bet German engineering is not cheap (well, it is supposed to be the best, I mean German engineering, I don’t know much about the tank).
by Malik Asad
Good news
by TZK
One of the lessons learned during WW2 was that in a long war German tanks like the Panther and the Tiger when pitted against cheap and simple machines like the USA M4 Sherman and Russian T34 fared less well. A common phrase associated with German products is ‘over engineered’ , ‘difficult to maintain’ and ‘never breaks down’. Basically German machines tend to be the best for reliability if maintained but when they break down they are difficult to repair.
by Joseph
Actually after some reading it seems the engine power of MBT is better expressed in term of power/weight radio, and according to most sources VT4’s power/weight radio is 25, which is also stated on it’s wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT-4 but the wikipedia page also states VT4’s is using a 1300 hp engine.
And according to this: http://worldofdefense.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/arjun-weight-ratio-compared-to-other.html Only French and German MBTs have a higher power/weight radio at around 27. American M1A2 and Indian Arjun MBTs are around 23, Russian T-90 is 21.5, so I’d say VT4’s engine power is adequate.
If Al-Khalid-II is going to use a more powerful engine, it’s performance only improves if it’s weight stays the same. And if it’s weight stayed the same it’s power/weight radio would be around 32, probably the highest in the world (base on weight of 46 tons), which I think is hardly necessary, so I bet Al-Khalid-II would weight more than the current Al-Khalid MBT, most likely more than VT4 as well.
Al-Khalid’s current weight is similar to Japan’s new Type 10 MBT (44 tons), but Type 10 is to compliment Japan’s heavier Type 90 MBT, not supposed to take on heavier enemy MBTs alone.
Considering India’s Arjun Mk.2 MBT is at 68 tons, which is even heavier than US M1A2, I’d say Pakistan is thinking of making a heavier MBT.
Arjun Mk.2 is also planning to use a 1500 hp engine, but even with the new engine it’s power/weight radio would drop to 22.
Turkey’s Altay (4th generation) is planning to use a 1500 hp engine as well but Altay MBT weights 65 tons, so it’s power/weight radio is 23, which is quite average.
by kaster
Will Russia sell such a advanced tank to Pakistan considering Russia’s relationship with India?
by Amjad Malik
Like German cars are excellent, but too expensive to fix. 🙁
by Steve
Armata is like the Su-35 of armour. The same issues apply.
by sami shahid
We should not buy MBT 3000 as there is not much difference between Al-Khalid & MBT-3000. We should either buy Oplot M as it’s operational range is more than MBT-3000 or we should upgrade our Al-Khalid by installing a remote controlled turret, change the design of side skirts and a new camouflage because this is the only difference. Another option can be to buy VT-5 from China.
by Nasir
All valid wishes. after all if you can buy a A Mercedes G wagon, why settle for a plain Jeep.
However, the money is always a factor. Who is going to pay for the Leopards and Armata? I think that even Russian Army is only now just started to receive batch produced T-14s and they will probably move to serial production soon, however it will take many years before they are done reequipping their own army and start selling export versions. I also think the Germany has a very limited number of Leopard tanks themselves, and they are not crazy about selling anything to Pakistan. Try to buy something made in Germany in Pakistan. They would not sell their good stuff to the US even. For last four or five years, I have been hoping to by a V-Class van for my family here in the US, but alas they do not want to sell it to idiot Americans. Total sale of S class cars in the US is around a thousand.
Additionally, I do not think any war between Pakistan and India will or can last for more than a couple of weeks, if that. We do not have the ammunition or fuel to engage in large Tank battles. The Tanks are probably not going to feature prominently in any wars in the future, especially in Sub-continent.
The only use for a Tank is in an engagement with an infantry on very a limited terrain. Where they will mostly serve as armored carriers. I think there is more to be gained by armored carriers than with Tanks.
So I hope we stop wishing for impractical and start thinking about what is possible. Did you know that a tanker in Pakistan get to shoot only one round per year? That is how expensive that stuff is. They train on simulators. The only live fire training PA gets is from rotating out their cavalry contingent in Saudi Arabia: which most of you guys hate.
Good luck with fantasy.
Nasir
by Abdul Basit Iqbal
Well few of German products that are in use with PN are much more better in terms of ease of maintenance, reliability and operations, than other systems by varying other nations. Personally, I would prefer a German Leopard 2A series over any other MBT, but that will come at a cost. As according to Wikipedia, cost of a Leopard 2A6 in 2007 was $ 5.74 Mn…
But then I see, cost of 28 VT-4 MBT comes to around at $ 5.36 Mn. And this makes me think, why aren’t we going any of LECLEREC, LEOPARD (preferably) & Challenger if they fall in the same price range…
by TZK
An effective way of dealing with a heavily protected tank in terms of armour is not to develop an equally heavy tank but a anti tank weapon or gun to counter it. That’s what the Russians and the British did during WW2 when the Germans introduced the Tiger. The Tiger being so heavy was unable to cross bridges and could not even be towed and in the frozen and muddy terrain on the eastern front it got bogged down and could only travel effectively on roads.
by Shershahsuri
What about Turkey’s Altay MBT?
by Joseph
Turkey’s Altay MBT is supposed to be 4th generation advanced tank, more than competent MBT for Pakistan, though it is not cheap. I think VT4 is about $5 million each, Altay is about $13.75 million as stated on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_(tank) even more expensive than US M1, $8.92 million as of 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams. Turkey military hardware I think is mostly selling at European prices.
But I agree to face off with Arjun Mk.2 (68 tons), Altay (65 tons) is more of the same weight class and likely superior compare to Arjun Mk.2 (third generation advanced).
If the current 1500 hp engine is replaced with a 1800 hp one, Altay would have a very impressive power/weight ratio of 27, far better than Arjun Mk.2’s 22.
by TZK
Indians have been passing on Russian military technology to Israel who subsequently develop their own versions for resale to India and the west. This has been happening for years and I am not sure Russians realise this. Israel has the benefit of unfettered access to both western and Russian technology which they modify and rebrand as their own. I am sure when the Rafale and S400 arrive in India they will no doubt be closely scrutinised by Israel because the Arabs have also acquired them.
by Frank Mossman
In support of TZK’s comment, please read:
https://www.rt.com/news/410068-leopard-tanks-not-operational/
particularly the sentence ” In April this year, it emerged that Germany’s armored vehicles deployed to Mali as part of a UN mission were taken down due to “dust” and “rocky roads.” ” This deficiency is particularly relevant in that the primary deployment areas for Pakistani tanks, abound in dust and sand.
It is unfortunate that Pakistan’s HIT plant is incapable of innovating a new tank from scratch or of upgrading its al-Khalid MBT through their own efforts. Notwithstanding the problems India experienced during the (continuing) development of their Arjun MBT, self-help is the best help in weapons design. Both North Korea & India have shown that producing duds is the inescapable cost of learning (eg the Nirbhay cruise missile, which has now overcome its teething problems, ballastic missile/ nuclear test failures in NKorea’s case). Making mistakes is an essential part of R & D. Fear of failure is as fatal to weapons design as it is to all other fields of human endeavour.
by Joseph
Haha, thanks for that. The state of German military is understandable, I expected that after I read they sold most of their tanks after German unification. They thought the cold war was over, Russia is now one tenth of it’s former Soviet glory, there are enough former Soviet union countries joining NATO to provide a buffer zone for Russian threat. China is far too remote and there is Russia between Europe and China. For once western Europe is quite safe. I bet German military budget is greatly cut, it’s army is like summer camp now. Of course it is still quite shocking that most of it’s tanks are not working.
But Leopard 2 is designed during cold war, it is still regarded by a lot of people as the best MBT in the world. The problems encountered during the UN mission are likely because the vehicles are already in bad shape due to maintenance issues.
It could also because Leopard 2 is only designed for German terrain, but I doubt some dust could stop a MBT. I doubt dust could even stop a Mercedes SUV.
Leopard 2 has a power/weight ratio ratio of 27, if there is a rocky road a fully functional Leopard 2 can’t handle, then I think no other MBT can.
I think Leopard 2 is still sound. The next German MBT is probably not, if there is going to be a next German MBT at all.
by Asif Khan_47
Had a long discussion with Turkish brothers about Altay project with a domestically developed third-generation main battle tank (MBT) and Pakitan. They explicitly has don’t know where this news came that Pakistan has shown interest in the Altay project. They claim this is wrong news being circulated.
by PewPew
The news about Pakistan supposedly being interested in the Altay came from Ismail Demir – i.e. the Undersecretary of Defense Industries (SSM).
He is basically the head official for procurement, export issues, etc.
He said the following to the Turkish Parliament in 2016:
———————————-
“Including Pakistan and the Gulf countries, we can say that countries that we have good relations with are showing a large interest in the tank. Representatives of some countries are being invited to the ongoing firing tests,” he said, adding that the tests were extremely satisfying.
“Lately, we have seen that Saudi Arabia’s interest was big,” he said.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkeys-first-domestic-tank-sees-big-regional-demand-93567
———————————-
Anyways, it doesn’t matter much. Pakistan cant afford such a tank nor is Turkey going to export it before it even enters serial production for their own army. No one will buy a tank that literally isn’t in production (with no spare parts, maintenance support, etc or anything necessary for a procurement even defined).
by T-123456
So,your Turkish brothers are more credible then the Head of the Undersecretary of Defense Industries(SSM) Ismail Demir of the Republic of Turkey?
Who are these brothers of yours,do they have any relations to the Turkish defence industry like some of us do(real sources,no ”hear say”)?
In english,
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkeys-first-domestic-tank-sees-big-regional-demand-93567
Since the project had started,Pakistan showed interest in it,another article by a well know Turkish defence analist.
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2016/01/15/turkish-tank-sees-pakistani-saudi-interest/
.
by Cabatli_53
Actually, It was discussed with Pakistani counterparts regarding potential of Altay MBT for Pakistan a few years ago in January. Turkish side introduced the capabilities of Altay to seek cooperation possibilities for fire control system, armour units to be applied for Pakistani tank upgrade programs (matured sections) and likely Altay acquisition for future. Altay will pass into serial production in those years. Turkish Land Forces want “Akkor” Hard-kill system as standart equipment of Altay so Aselsan has accelerated to develop sensor/munition units of Akkor to catch the production schedule of Altay. Once production is commenced, There would be stronger negotiations between Pakistani/Turkish officials to discuss/check/test the capabilities of serially manufactured units in both Turkey and Pakistani territories.
by TZK
While it is accepted that WW2 tanks should not have any bearing on today’s version I was making two points. Firstly it is not always the sophistication or size that always counts in a battle especially in a long drawn out war as WW2 where maintenance became crucial and secondly you need to fit the tank to the environment it will operate in. Most European designed tanks were most probably designed for the European theatre in mind so may not be ideal in say a desert environment. Finally I did not mean to demean any German or Chinese product as at home I use them all the time unfortunately my car is Japanese made simply because German cars are too expensive where I live.
by Asif Khan_47
Yes, I met these Turkish brothers while having buffet breakfast DSEI 2017 defense exhibition in London in September at the hotel. I have the card of the person his name Serdar Gorguc, General Manager, Otokar. And this is more or less what he said “Some industry sources have claimed that Pakistan has expressed an interest in the Altay, there is no truth to this.” However he did say Gulf Countries did express interest.
by Nasir
Do you know how many Al-Khalid-II tanks have been made are in service with Pakistan Army. You will be surprised that it is a handful.
I think the era of Tank battles (a brilliant weapon during WWII) is over. During the cold war, the Russians has amassed a large number of Tank in Germany, however it was just for the sake of force protection against a sudden attack, the opposing forces were face to face and on level ground in Berlin. No one wanted to use battlefield nukes.
If Pakistan does not use Battlefield Nukes in case of an Indian Cavalry attack it will be stupid. A single battlefield Nuke can take out an entire formation of a Tank regiment or even a division.
As opposed to India, Pakistan has it major cities on the India Border or very close to it. The tanks make sense for India, on their western front–if Pakistan starts dithering about using Nukes due to some moral qualm–which they most likely will do due to lack of ability to assess the situation–they will most certainly lose Pakistan. However, the same is not true for Pakistan if Pakistan even goes a couple of hundred miles in India based on their Tank force, India will neither lose their conventional ability to take out Pakistani Tanks so far from their supply channels, they will still have the option to use Nukes.
Therefore, those who advocate no first strike doctrine have drank the Kool Aid or propaganda. One has to do what is necessary quickly, and without thought to later propaganda or protestations of people who talk out of their backsides like that Minister of Pakistan Burney something, who let go an Indian spy, who then admitted that he was a spy.
If Indians come into Pakistan Cities, Nukes will be of no use. No second strike will make up for the inability to act in a timely fashion. The entire Pakistani defense doctrine is based on a monkey see monkey do, rather than a coherent strategy to defend the country in any meaningful way.
If Pakistan is destroyed by an Indian attack on the cities (and they will not hesitate, remember they are the ones who obtained nuclear weapons first, who defeated Pakistan in Bangladesh, and rendered the Port of Karachi useless by blockading it during ’71). So even if Pakistan has capability to use the Nukes from submarines, will it do anything about winning the war or will it just be a revenge killing.
Wars are fought to achieve political objectives, what political objective will a strike from Sea if the country is under enemy occupation?
We cannot not have Duds and retards formulating our defense policy while we egg them on to buy even more expensive stuff so that they can strut around thumping their chests, when in fact if a war actually takes place they will discover that their entire shopping spree has been bling based: when you pan a diamond you get 50 dollars!
If these people were any good at strategizing they would not be engaged in petty larceny to buy multi-billion dollar equipment: equipment purchases from US just in return of TA/DA!
How they cut each other’s throats to go to any country, even Zimbabwe to get a few bucks. I remember when a senior of mine from 68th GD came back after a couple months long “course” from Italy with his hair as long as a woman’s, his rationale: I am getting married so I have to save money.
Of course, these same people are now the big wig strategists in the military, where we are asked to trust their judgement.
The only competent person I knew in my entire service was Sohail Gul (Air Marshal) from 67th GDP: he was cut off the knees by Sohail Aman’s (Current CAS) protectors since he was more malleable and belonged to a quota ethnic group. Is that what we want? Total disregard of competence?
I know both of them personally, and their intellect was a couple of order of magnitude different.
Pakistan has to have a defense strategy which is meant for Pakistan, and is not burdened by consideration of larceny, it must be unapologetic and thoughtful. We must not base it one flavor-of-the-month propaganda.
Sincerely,
Nasir
by Nasir
My question was not permission to but it. I want to know who will pay for it?!
Would your mortgage your house and pay half of your salary to help the country out? If the answer is yes–more power to you.
by TZK
The article mentioned vehicles and not specifically Leopards which are designed to go underwater (due to their weight making them too heavy from bridges) with the massive funnel/periscope that is shown on one of the tanks in the picture for navigating completely submerged. The article is from RT which is not entirely pro-NATO.
by Joseph
You are right. If close attention is paid to the photo about German soldiers on UN mission, none of the vehicles are MBTs.
Also the statement “operating conditions regularly push [the German forces] to the point of breakdown in terms of equipment.” is a bit vague. It could well be those vehicles did not have air conditioning or could not plugin a portable fridge, so soldiers were refusing to go out in the heat.
by Joseph
I am not Pakistani, so my tax dollars go to US tanks (M1A1, not the best but it is a battle proven tank with air-conditioning, so good for whatever our soldiers are up to) and as an Australian actually just about half of my salary goes to the country. Well, federal and state governments, let’s not forget about my local council, which just last year diligently working with state government and transport authority and spend more than $2 million and a year to construct a new staircase and a lift for my local train station. I am proud to say that was my tax dollars at work. And I can’t mortgage my house, not if my bank has anything to say about it :).
All the kidding aside, ground invasion always starts with tanks and it is not that difficult to counter nuclear weapons if you spread them out. Modern tanks are armed with CBRN defense (Chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear defense), unless they are within 500m range of nuclear blast center they are most likely going to be fine.
by PewPew
It’s difficult to reconcile what you’re claiming with a verifiable statement by a top Turkish gov’t official to the Turkish parliament. In fact, what you’re trying to push — “Some industry sources…” — isn’t even an accurate description of the issue as the source of this claim came from the Turkish Gov’t, not the industry or “industry sources.”
by Jigsaw
Lol. Pakistan may consider. Russia will not consider.
by T-123456
He is the general manager of Otokar(His name is Ahmed Serdar Görgeç) who lost the tender for the Altay MBT,what did you expect him to say?
Of course he has a negative stance because he knows Otokar doesnt have a chance of getting the tender(ridiculous high amount of production costs).
Btw,the SSM has all the rights to the Altay MBT,intends of procurement come directly to the SSM and not to Otokar which is only logical.
Now,you decide if your claim makes any sense.
Or you could talk to some Pakistani Army generals(or other decision makers) if they are interested in the Altay MBT,since you have such a great network in the military industry and let us know if they are interested,a good idea or not?
by PewPew
It’s the internet. Anyone can claim he spoke to this guy or that guy in matter of minutes and everyone would have to take their word for it. It’s fine if people want to believe that, but don’t use hearsay to say something is true or false when contrary information is available to the public.
This is why in discussions such as this it is important to stick to ‘common facts’ – ie: statements, interviews and so on we can all refer back to.
by Cabatli_53
Otokar was charged to develop Altay MBT on the lights of Tukish Land Forces requirements. When It is reached the performance parameters on field thanks to MTR, FTR, PV-1, PV-2 prototypes, the detail design studies approved and frozen. After this period, Otokar doesn’t have a saying about Altay’s future since the All intellectual and property rights including design elements have been delivered to SSM. It is waited a new private institute to be charged by SSM for serial production to approved design. That’s why Your claims regarding Otokar head Mr Serdar doesn’t replect the truth since Presentation/exportation of Altay has nothing to do with Mr. Serdar but SSM, İsmail Demir, Aselsan for electronics, FCS and Roketsan for Armour blocks.
by PewPew
It seems very similar to the MILGEM. Even though Turkish shipyards like Tuzla Shipyard do the construction work (and Delta Marine the design work), the actual marketing and export of the ship is managed by Turkish government through STM and only STM, which is chaired by SSM Ismail Demir.
by Jigsaw
The news is well reported by respected media outlets citing the Turkish officials.
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2016/01/15/turkish-tank-sees-pakistani-saudi-interest/
“Ismail Demir, head of the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) said during a presentation in parliament that including Pakistan and the Gulf countries with which Turkey has good political relations were showing a large interest in the Altay.”
I think it’s natural to believe without surprised faces that Pakistan has a general interest in ALL Turkish products, and the pace at which Pakistan has gone for certain Turkish procurements across all military arms is proof of that – Ada class, JF-17 targeting pods, T129, and submarine programme, and more. Given the technological concerns pakistani military has, it’s understandable they will consider Turkish and chinese projects in larger numbers in coming days. Don’t know why you would believe the contrary given all these developments.
The tank is still in development. I’m sure at some point they will want to trial the tank. Nevertheless, Pakistan will go for a modest number even if it qualifies. At this point, no one – army or Turkish – knows if altay will make it to induction in Pakistan army. Goes for VT4 too.
by Nasir
Nothing stops you from still sending the money to Pakistan. Unless you are trolling to create artificial demand in stupid Pakistani Military leadership. I have noticed that people writing and commenting on this site are very gung ho for Pakistan to buy Turkish (substandard, and use limited) military equipment as well as trolling for Other arms manufacturers.
Last time I looked Australian money was good in Pakistan, so send half of the take home to Pakistan to fritter it away to expensive yet useless armament will put some teeth to constant exhortations to buy more stuff.
So kidding aside. The CBRN is only for nuclear fall out, not for protection. No tank can withstand a nuclear explosion anywhere near in its neighborhood. The neutron flux destroys all cells, and the accompanying EM wave kills all things electronic and some electrical stuff.
Of course people who promise such protection, have to use clever acronyms. However, does anyone guarantee it? Does anyone even guarantee protection against a tank killer projectile?
Here is a question (not in ad hominem spirit) is anyone you know willing to sit in this fancy tank and prove it?
“most likely to be fine” are weasel words, that are more fitting to marketing team for iPhone. There should be stricter standard to sales talk when it comes to those who push weapons (arms merchants).
Think about it!
Nasir
by Jigsaw
There is basically zero chance India will ever depend on Arjun MBT to lead aggressor formations against Pakistan. That will be T90 and heavy T90 procurement is proof of that concept. Pakistan’s eye’s on a modest number of high performance net gen tanks means it intends to spearhead its attack using those tanks.
by Joseph
Yeah, I just had a look of Indian army equipment listing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Indian_Army#Armoured_Combat_Vehicles They have 248 Arjun MBT but they have 1650 T-90s and 2410 T-72s. That is a lot of tanks.
T-72 is proven to be an obsolete tank during various gulf wars when facing US M1. T-90 is light, slow, has a low power/weight ratio, overall does not be seem to be an impressive tank.
If Pakistan only need to deal with these 2 (T-90 and T-72), VT4 or even Al-Khalid is probably more than enough.
Though at over 4000 tanks compare to Pakistan’s around 2000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Pakistan_Army#Armour , India does have an advantage on numbers.
According to this: http://thestrategictimes.com/fmbt-future-main-battle-tank-of-india/ the reason India developed Arjun is because they thought Pakistan was going to buy US M1, haha, funny, I know.
It seems there is a chance India will buy T-14 Armata from Russia or develop some sort of T-14 variant called Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) the next few years to replace the old T-72s.
by Asif Khan_47
He is still the GM, Turkish Army still plans to buy 250 of Altay so what you are saying without any evidence and if I talked to him it is BS???? Get real kid!
by Headstrong
‘Indians have been passing on Russian military technology to Israel who subsequently develop their own versions for resale to India and the west. This has been happening for years and I am not sure Russians realise this’
You know this has been happening ‘for years’ and not the Russians? Somehow that seems incredulous.
And you also probably know that Israeli stuff is more expensive than Russian. Why would India then buy more expensive stuff from Israel, if it could get cheaper from Russia?
by TZK
Russians may know and turn a blind eye or know about it but cannot be proven as the original has been changed or modified to such an extent that it is no longer like the original but the original concept is Russian. In relation to India I think they believe that they are getting a superior product to replace the inferior Russian version. USA does the same thing as they are reluctant to either copy or buy any Russian weapon system so Israel sanitises it for them and they will either collaborate to further improve it or buy from Israel.
by Headstrong
Far too much speculation to merit a reply
by T-123456
Uncle,he is the GM of Otokar,talk to the head of SSM so that people can take you serious.
I never claimed your conversation with him as bs,i said he has no say in the program or sales of the Altay MBT,again im telling you,all rights belong to the SSM.
Just accept that you are wrong and lets move on.
Anger is never a good thing but if it makes you feel better,no problem,you are the man.
by Nasir
I thought as much. Nicely played. However, if someone want to try to sell Pakistan a Nuclear explosion proof Tank. I will buy it with my own money: but the claimant will have to sit in one a 500 m and prove it.
Using acronyms does not make things better. All this talk of HOTAS, ASEA, CBRN, MALE, and other garbage is just a weasel way to make other people think that one is smart. People these days don’t want to ask what these words mean: it is considered admission of lack of knowledge. However, those who know not only make people say what the acronyms stand for, but they demand a explanation how how they are better.
I do that, and I have always ended up with shaming the frauds.I had a Director in the Airforce, who got promoted only based on incomprehensible talk, he was not only ignorant and did knot know what he was talking about. However, his uniform was was always worn with extra pride, and he sucked up to others like there was no tomorrow. People Should not just ask why what is HOTAS they must also ask the actual benefits of it, and if it actually makes enough difference to have a few hundred families go hungry for a year to get that video gamer’s wet dream toy.
On a positive note, I noticed that the ISPR went ahead and underscored the Nuclear first use doctrine in response to the Indian Amry chief. Although I find this ISPR director distasteful personally, his message as good and I hope that Pakistan uses its Nuclear power (especially tactical Nukes) for not only deterrence but to prevent the stationing of Indian Airforce squadrons, and large military formation to move back several hundred miles away from our eastern borders: Am I talking Nuclear blackmail? You bet! That is what will save our resources for the development of Pakistan.
I am all for not only first use, but preemptive use, and maintaining a buffer zone against between India and Pakistan border. Lets say removal of all military installations, all military formations, all manufacturing of dual use equipment, any chemical or biological industry 300 miles away from Pakistani Border.
Sincerely,
Nasir