334Views 43Comments
Pakistani Prime Minister confirms T129 and MILGEM talks with Turkey
Pakistan’s Prime Minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi conducted an official visit to Turkey last week. In addition to attending the Developing-8 Organization for Economic Cooperation (D-8) Istanbul Summit, Abbasi also spoke of Pakistan’s potential defence transactions with Turkey.
On Sunday, October 22 Shahid Abbasi visited Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and flew in the TAI T129 ATAK attack helicopter. Abbasi confirmed that Pakistan was “negotiating terms for the purchase” of T129 attack helicopters. This confirms earlier news reports in June of Pakistan opening talks for 30 T129s.
The Turkish news website Kokpit Aero reports that Pakistan also requested a financing arrangement for the T129s from Turkey. It adds that the Turkish government is working to allocate $1.5 billion U.S. in credit.
The Pakistan Army had selected the T129 to replace its aging AH-1F/S Cobra attack helicopters and to complement the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper. Besides exploring credit to back the deal, TAI reportedly offered Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) parts manufacturing work for the T129.
Speaking to the Daily Sabah, Abbasi outlined that while there were several big-ticket programs underway between the two countries, there were also key mutually agreed upon objectives, stating, “Our shared objective is to strengthen our respective capabilities for indigenous defense production.”
Abbasi also touched upon the High-Level Military Dialogue Group (HLMDG), which he says has “significant representation from the defense sectors of both countries, meets regularly and chalks out strategies and initiatives for defense collaboration.” Abbasi added that the two countries “have significant capacities and complementarities, from which both sides are working to draw beneficial results.”
Besides noting Turkey’s order for 52 Super Mushshak trainers from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Abbasi also spoke about ongoing negotiations for four MILGEM Ada-class corvettes, stating, “[Turkey and Pakistan] are working on the project for four MİLGEM Ada class corvettes.”
Pakistan had signed a letter-of-intent (LOI) for the MILGEM in May, but it has yet to sign the final contract. The LOI stipulated that the ships would be constructed at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) if selected by Pakistan. Ankara had also prepared a line-of-credit for Pakistan worth $400 million U.S. for the corvettes.
Earlier in October, the Pakistan Navy’s previous Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Muhammad Zakaullah announced that Pakistan signed a contract with China for new frigates. Abbasi’s comments suggest that the MILGEM program is still alive and, if brought to fruition, will augment the new frigate purchase. If the deal is signed, it would follow the Pakistan Navy Fleet Tanker and Agosta 90B submarine upgrade program as Savunma Teknolojileri Muhendislik Ve Ticaret A.S.’ (STM) third naval contract in Pakistan.
The Ada has a full-load displacement of 2,300 tons. Its standard configuration includes dual quad-cell (2×4) launchers for anti-ship missiles (AShM), two triple torpedo launchers for anti-submarine warfare (ASW), a 76-mm main gun and a Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) system for short-range air defence (SHORAD).
Addendum (Nov 12. 2017): TAI General Manager Temel Kotil confirmed to Turkey’s state-owned news agency Anadolu Agency that Pakistan is negotiating for 30 T129 ATAK attack helicopters. Kotil did not provide a specific timeline as to when the deal will be signed.
Notes & Comments:
Shahid Abbasi’s statements affirm that Turkey has emerged as one of Pakistan’s leading defence suppliers, second only to China. Due to the Turkish industry’s linkage with American and Western European vendors, Turkey can emerge as a surrogate vendor of Western arms technology to Pakistan. The T129 and MILGEM are examples, though Ankara is intending to increase the domestic share of sub-systems and technologies in these and other major weapon systems.
Abbasi’s statements indicate that Pakistan is interested in collaborating with Turkey on developing defence solutions so that they can be produced between the two countries. Besides securing the supply channel from possible interruptions (e.g. foreign relations challenges), it would enable both countries to steer defence spending to their respective economies instead of costly imports.
Turkish and Pakistani officials have spoke of possible cooperation on Turkey’s Milli Muharebe Uçağı – also known as the TAI TFX – next-generation fighter. In 2016, Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production (MoDP) revealed that PAC was invited to participate in the TFX program. In an interview with Bol Narratives in April, the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Chief of Air Staff (CAS) stated, “We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.”
It appears that the TFX became a factor in the PAF’s next-generation fighter plans, which could see PAC and TAI collaborate closely in the development and production process. TAI will also be developing a 10-ton general purpose helicopter along with a heavier ATAK variant. Considering that Pakistan operates two legacy helicopter platforms in the Sea King and Puma, collaborating with Turkey on a Black Hawk or NH90-size utility helicopter for long-term army, navy, air force and civil services could be an option.
If finalized, the T129 ATAK could be a bridge to such a program. In 2016, the Pakistan Army evaluated the T129 and the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10 for a requirement to complement the forthcoming Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper. As per TAI, Pakistan was impressed with the T129’s hot-and-high performance and ferry range. Besides integrating PAC into the T129 supply channel (e.g. for spare parts), the program could also lead to bilateral collaboration in avionics, optronics and munitions development.
Interestingly, in 2016 when reports of Pakistan expressing interest in the T129 had emerged, an official from the Turkish Undersecretariat of Defence Industries (SSM) stated that the T129 was “required by the Pakistan Army, Navy and Air Force. Thus, all three services [were] involved in the process.”[1] This would be interesting seeing that neither the Navy or Air Force have ever operated such assets.
The Pakistan Navy Marines have seen growth in recent years in their role of protecting Pakistan’s coastal regions. If the Marines are geared to guard the adjacent coast with India, the T129 could theoretically be a close air support (CAS) asset for that environment. These could also be integrated with Special Service Group (SSG) Navy operations. As for the PAF, it could mirror the Indian Air Force in using attack helicopters to support combat-search-and-rescue (CSAR) operations, which could see linkage with the Special Service Wing (SSW). A local support network with spare parts manufacturing and depot-level maintenance, repair and overhaul could make T129 adoption in the PAF and Navy plausible, at least in the long-term.
[1] MSI Turkish Defence Review. January 2017. “Turkey-Pakistan Defence Relations Moving to Next Level” http://www.milscint.com/en/onceki-sayilarimiz/issue-january-2017034/?type=mil
43 Comments
by T-123456
Now the 4 ADA class corvettes make sense,together with Chinese frigates(at least two,probably more),8 Chinese subs will make sure that Pakistan has a formidable Navy in the future.
by Nasr Khan
By far the most ridiculously absurd deal to have ever been hatched. Purchasing T-129s when Pakistan ought to go for either WZ-10s or Mi-35s. The whole basis Pakistan military procurement approach is to armor itself against prospective western sanctions, reliance on western manufacturers and so on. Turkish hardware is heavily dependent on western support. Without western support on technology, industrial manufacturing and modernization, the Turks are a sitting duck. And for Pakistan to go for T-129, which is essentially A-129 Mangusta of Agusta-Westland/Leonardo/Finmeccanica product. Instead Pakistan ought to be looking at the WZ-10 Helo Gunships and the possibility of establishing a full spectrum MRO for this rotorcraft.
Not forgetting the Milgem Corvette. Which has zero air defence capability, zero ability to challenge or defend against blue water threats and cannot hold its own even in brown water theater. The Milgem comes with NO ESSM, NO VLS, NO AESA and yet the brain dead buffoons would purchase these ships on a line of credit!!! Clearly we have apes instead of humans making defense procurement decisions in Pakistan. For the same kind of money Pakistan ought to be looking at procurement of Type-054A Frigates and Type-052D Air-Defense Destroyers. Pakistan Navy will not be defending it’s maritime territory against pirates. It would be defending it’s territory against the likes of indian navy which is bristling with Aegis like destroyers, frigates, corvettes and submarines.
If this deal were to go through, I would call it the worst deal ever since Pakistan Air Force purchased those bucket-targets in the air called Super Marine Attackers (british trash).
by Joseph
Maybe they are considered as non-critical ancillary platforms, even crippled by sanctions it would not affect outcome of military conflicts significantly. These purchases are probably used to enhance defense ties with Turkey, the only Pakistan ally with a NATO connection and western military technologies.
by Irfan Ullah
Pakistan must go for MILGEM Adda class Coverttes with VLS design ……….
by Joseph
I think Ada-class corvettes are too small to accommodate VLS system. To be honest I don’t think they are serious war ships, that role would be for the new Chinese frigates and submarines PN is buying.
I think the main job of Ada-class corvettes are of anti-piracy and anti-smuggling nature as patrol vessels, they should be more than capable of handling these kinds of threats. Unless there are some seriously armed pirates and smugglers I don’t know about.
I think buying T129 is a far riskier move, because according to wikipedia it is using an American engine. Close air support could be quite important even it is unlikely to be a dominate factor in military conflicts.
by sam
get educated kid.
1) pakistan does not have the finance to buy french or dutch frigates. and chinese junks can not even compare to western warships.
just to have VLS does not mean, that those missiles are capable of hitting the target. specially upcoming either rafale or f35 for indian navy for the future.
2) as of today 65% of milgem project is turkish origin, and balance is either french or german, almost no US part included. and neither france or germany have any animosity toward pakistan to block the sales.
3) T129 is not A129, the whole avionics suit, missiles, targeting pod, software and many more parts has been redeveloped in turkey. (now do not say that turkish product is inferior, because the same aselsan, TAI and roketsan export 80% of their annual 1.6 billion$ to Either USA or european market.
4) and unlike pakistan who has to defend against third world army like india, Turkey has prepared its armed forces considering a much mighty sea power like Russia in their doorstep. and launched every defence program according to need of hour
AND the most important point.
Milgem is basically semi-stealth corvette almost exclusively looking after under sea threats. or lets call it a Sub-hunter
it is not an air defence vessel
A navy can not look after sky and forget about under water.
and if you think A type-054A will cost same as Corvette or the chinese will sent it to you free of cost. then u need counsellor service.
last point.
Do not put all your eggs in one basket. no one is permanent friend, specially the chinese. and the russians want good money for their machines and CASHHHHHHH. and then the spare parts issue
learn how they deal with indians regarding their SU30s spare parts.
by Bilal Khan
Let’s refrain from calling people apes, thanks.
by sam
Bro Milgem corvettes are Designed as reconnaissance, surveillance, target identification, and Mainly anti-submarine warfare.
turkey did not need these corvettes for anti piracy, and neither are pirates around mediterranean sea.
ofcourse pak navy does not have alot of money to waste if they are not suitable for them.
so be sure about that.
they are much more expert and know their requirements. and neither are pakistani politicians powerful enough to go against wishes of pakistan military for procurement.
Simple example is turkey bought 52 super mushshak trainers, while in fact turkey produce much more advanced trainers like hurkus.
but mushshak cost less than half of hurkus and they are for basic trainers, so why use more expensive advanced trainers for basic training when u can buy it cheaper for that specific usage.
my main argument is every product has its own usage. u can not use one product for 10 missions. so better to use every product for its speciality
by ali amanat
You are quite right, just playing with the nation ,after 70 years of indepedence still they are begging for credit and finance , no local R&D, no designing and development our engineers are bureaucrates not worker and those who want to do something are being sidelined quitely , its very unfortunate, really urgent to change this corrupt system and need a visionary leadership ,true soldiers , workers and not bureaucratic mind engineering officers.
by Bilal Khan
They can look at stretching the Ada-class by another 10-15 m to place VLS. This is doable and a design similar to that was already made by Delta Marine in the form of the LF-2400. It’s an issue of funding and time, basically.
by ahmria
Isn’t the new Istanbul class a stretched Milgem with a larger VLS installed for more SAMs and a focus on area defence? If anything that would be a more appropriate purchase.
by ahmria
The Milgem corvettes are basically a small warship designed to patrol and engage other ships in coastal waters and presumably operate under the protection of the airforce hence the point defence Sam system (RAM). They are not designed to be blue water capable warships and in terms of armament are actually more heavily armed than the American LCS class ships which cost a hell of a lot more and are at present not as capable. You will not get a frigate or destroyer at corvette class warship prices and I can’t imagine the Chinese gifting Pakistan some type52c destroyers never mind their latest type52d destroyers as they would want hard cash and lots of it for that kid of purchase and the Pakistan Navy simply cannot afford to purchase and operate destroyers hence the emphasis on frigates and corvettes.
by Bilal Khan
Yep there’s that too, but the LF-2400 seemed to be a closer derivative of the Ada. Even its displacement is only 50 tons more than the Ada, whereas the I-Class is close to 3,000 tons full-load.
by Mike
The Ada Class is designed mainly as an anti-submarine vessel. Also its fitted with DAKA ZOKA and HIZIR decoys for that purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tlhdu3DoKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Q5dKQAN14
by Mike
Comparing the A129 with the T129 is the most absurd thing, ever heard.
The A129 isnt even considered as a good attack helicopter among experts.
It was described as a slow, blind, donkey. The T129 has a way higher flight hight, is faster and far more agile. It has far superior avionics, integrated waepon sysetems, counter measures and a high resulution ASELFLIR. Engines (licensed produced ffrom GE by turkey, turkish developed engine will take 7 years, desing phase is already complete), frame, rotors (trurkish), electronics/avionics (turkish) and gear (turkish) are all upgraded. Whats left is the shape of a A129.
Also the T129 has Aselsan Avci a helmet integrated cueing system
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cdcb04a269ce0f148ff6b819f790bdcec6f97c359844708f5cc0e2283464a2bf.jpg
And Meteksan’s MILDAR mmw radar, which will be redesigned to a more compact size, to fit it on top of the rotors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjlbYzbGUgI&t=130s
by Mike
The I-Class is a redesign. They are designed to be faster than Ada Class…
by T-123456
The engine is from LHTEC,a joint venture(50-50 partnership) between Honeywell(USA) and Rolls-Royce(GB),there wont be any problem regarding the engine.The US can forbid Honeywell from selling but not RR of GB.
by Joseph
In terms of government doing things against the will of military, I hear IAF repeatedly rejected FGFA but so far Indian government was saying everything was on track according to this: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/05/24/steep-price-rise-hits-indo-russian-5th-gen-fighter-project/
And that is probably the most important air force platform for India’s future.
Diplomacy plays an important role in foreign military purchase and it is outside of pure military consideration.
by Joseph
If PN wanted to buy multi-functional light frigates from Turkey, wouldn’t it directly order LF-2400 instead?
Like I said before I think PN bought Ada class corvettes mainly as patrol vessels for anti-piracy and anti-smuggling purposes, so it might not be heavily armed.
As a western platform it is not sanction proof, so military is unlikely counting on it too much.
by Bilal Khan
To be fair we don’t know exactly what the PN is configuring … be it with the MILGEM Ada or the Chinese frigates. In the end, it could basically just be skinny Ada and F-22P with FL-3000N instead of RAM and HQ-7, respectively. However, as these ships will have stick for many decades, there is a cost to not being future-proof from the onset, so there’s a chance they could push for proper AAW. They basically need to just stretch the hull by 10-15 m and insert VLS (either at the bow or behind the mast) for something like the Umkhonto EIR or CAMM. As for Western sanctions, this can be mitigated by sourcing the electronics and weapons internally or from reliable sources, though the engines are MTU (German), be it for Turkish stuff or even Chinese (we use MTU).
by Joseph
Even it is a joint venture LHTEC is a US company (and located in US as well). And I can’t hardly imagine UK would disagree with US.
Also if there is a sanction it is likely to be a NATO sanction, even Turkey might be forced to comply.
by Bilal Khan
Pakistan would have to be a pariah like NK to incur UK and Western European sanctions. Even in the Pressler days (arguably the toughest period Pakistan had faced in terms of sanctions) the UK, France and even Germany (albeit to a lesser extent) were selling to Pakistan. The Agosta 90B, Mirage ROSE and (had corruption not intervened) M2K/-5 were all from that period.
by Joseph
Sorry, I am an Australian military enthusiast, unfamiliar with past sanctions against Pakistan. I linger here mostly because it is one of few places with in-depth discussion of military topics and technologies.
If it is just US or maybe UK sanction Pakistan is worried about then it might be prudent to use a Canadian or French turboshaft engine on Pakistan’s order of T129. I hear they produce quite decent helicopter engines.
by Faisal
Any decent country who offers credit to Pakistan, PA & PN will take it. I am pretty sure T-129s are better than Cobra Gunships we have right now. What I dont understand is that , what was the point ordering Viper Cobra and also Mi-35 and then Chinese Z-10. It will not be sustainable from maintenance perspective.
by Bilal Khan
Yep there’s that but if need be, the procurement can be staged in line with Turkey’s own turboshaft program.
by Joseph
I agree in term of countering sanctions, a Turkish engine has a significant advantage.
But counting on an unproven Turkish engine (I think they just started the design phase) is a bit risky, isn’t it? It is unlike a mature product in military service for some years and proven to be reliable.
It is not like Turkey has a lot of experience in aircraft engine development (other than the recent turboprop engine) , but Turkey is certainly ambitious about it’s defense industry.
by Bilal Khan
Pakistan has been banking on mature solutions for decades, but with diminishing security with each passing year. At some point, risk has to be taken as a necessary cost and new technology be made mature over time, as opposed to shelving it in favour of mature imports. The PAF is embarking on this route now with Project Azm (i.e. its own 5th-gen fighter program), the Army might as well join and add more resources to domestic development.
by Joseph
Speaking of ambitions I think Project Azm is even more ambitious than Turkish TFX. None other than US and China developed 5th gen fighters alone, not even Russia (They needed Indian funding). TFX and South Korea KFX are mostly western designs, more of technology transfer vehicles to gain experience than real indigenous development.
I think Pakistan is most likely to buy FC-31 from China and use it to leverage technology transfers for project Azm. Next to US, China seems to have the most mature stealth technologies.
Also due to NATO technology restrictions Pakistan is unlikely to learn much from TFX.
by Bilal Khan
From what the PAF has been saying, Project Azm will be an original design. However, that doesn’t mean Pakistan will go it alone with the program. Rather, it’ll be like the JF-17 in that PAC will get together with a Chinese company (hopefully CAC) to design a new fighter centered on the PAF’s requirements. Chengdu has had the most success in China with low-RCS design work with the J-20, the PAF can look to have Chengdu/CAC take its success there to a new, lighter platform.
However, unlike the JF-17 the PAF’s aim is to have most of the design, development and production work done in Pakistan. It may not even be a joint-program, the PAF could look at issuing contracts for technical support and assistance from outside vendors, much like Turkey and South Korea on the TFX and KFX, respectively. Design work with CAC, munitions development with Denel Dynamics, electronics (i.e. radar, avionics, etc) with Aselsan, composite materials development with some other firm, etc.
by Joseph
I guess it is possible PAF can work with Chengdu on a single engine J-20 variant, with a power plant like WS-15 when it is ready. Chengdu might also be interested in a light weight stealth fighter competing with Shenyang FC-31 for export and as a future J-10 replacement, and possibly as a naval fighter candidate for Chinese carriers.
by ahmria
I think the rationale behind operating gunships from different countries is that in the event of sanctions Pakistan would still have some
gunships that could fly. The AH-1Z is a dedicated heavyweight gunship and the T-129 would be a lightweight complement to it. The Mi-35 is unique and as I understand it would be used more for special forces insertion and extraction but with the ability to also put down suppressive fire for offence and Defense purposes
by Mike
my reply was for Nasr to be clear…
by HitmaN27K
Agusta-Westland is banned in Bharat for selling a weapon and civilian transport helicopter due to a bribery charges against them. Its just a money making deal on the line of Credit, I think.
by resason
Lol, NASR asked valid questions, kid.
by ahmria
I don’t think that is the case otherwise the PN would buy a less heavily armed OPV or gun boats for that purpose. The ADA class would not need anti ship missiles and torpedos for pirates or smugglers if that was its intended role.
by Joseph
I had the speculation above is mainly because I read some articles stating that for Pakistan anti-piracy and anti-smuggling issues are one of it’s main headaches for it’s navy. Older ships have a low response time and increasingly expensive to maintain.
So PN is in need of patrol vessels with fast response time and cheap to maintain. And frigates would be overkill for pirates and smugglers.
These corvettes have some anti-submarine capabilities so while patrolling they are also great for detecting Indian subs if they decide to come by.
Although need to prepare for war but majority of the time it won’t be for that purpose. Packing anti-ship missiles, SAMs, torpedoes on such small ships is kind of very crowded. So they are likely armed but maybe not fully armed. Anti-submarine torpedoes are a must, maybe anti-ship missiles as well just in case, but probably not SAMs. If Indian carriers are coming I can’t imagine they would be defended by Ada-class corvettes.
VLS would be very desirable for real warships because it could be used to launch all sorts of missiles, much more flexible, but like I said before. If PN wanted that they probably would go for the more expensive LF-2400 instead.
That is why I believe patrolling for pirates and smugglers is what they are for.
Anyway that is my guess of PN’s motives buying these corvettes.
Patrol boats about 100 ton class are not military equipment, more for marine police and custom department, unlikely to show up on navy procurement list. The ones used by navies are usually not that much smaller than Ada-class corvettes and usually have no anti-sub capabilities. If you were PN what would you buy?
by sami shahid
Dude, our engineers have repaired 3 SAAB Erieye Air crafts & now they are working on the development of Stealth Aircraft ! You must know it !
by sami shahid
Lol what are you talking about. These Gunship helicopters are very important for us for our border security, counter insurgency operations & Anti armour operations. As for anti piracy our navy has buying 5 multi purpose vessels & 2 of them have already been inducted. You need to read all articles on this website.
by sami shahid
Pakistan must buy Gunship helicopters from Turkey. T-129 is an alternate of AH-1 super Cobra. We need to replace our AH-1F cobra helicopters with new ones for our border security, anti armour operations & counter insurgency operations.
by Mohammed
It would be great to see these beautiful birds with Pakistani AF. It would give us an edge over those Indian c**p like dhruv or rudra.
by ali amanat
Brother onlý handful ppls are doing such commendable job even they can do more i was part of this system and i know better than anybody bureaucratic thinking is over whelming and a main hurdle .
by Bilal Khan
While the MILGEM Ada can be used for policing, I personally wouldn’t allocate them for that role full-time. We are talking about high-cost structural material and advanced electronics, so the relatively frequent risk of RPG attacks from pirates is the last thing the PN needs for such costly ships. The same applies to the F-22P and future Chinese frigate.
This is why the PN is buying two Damen OPVs. These OPVs have the range and space to undertake policing, but they’re built with steel and will not carry on board sensors, electronics and weapons as sophisticated or costly as those in the MILGEM Ada, F-22P and future frigate.
For policing against asymmetrical threats et. al, the PN might simply look at buying more Damen OPVs (or similar ships from other companies).
by Joseph
Damen OPV does not look smaller than Ada-class corvette, it also has helicopter as well. But I guess it does not have sonars, torpedoes, missiles, etc.
Sonars are usually underwater, so unlikely to get hit by some pirates, but I guess corvettes are more expensive than OPVs. I don’t know by how much though.