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Photos suggest nearing Pakistan Army AH-1Z Viper delivery
Photos of an apparent Pakistan Army Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter indicate that Pakistan will be taking delivery of its first batch in the coming weeks (or potentially sooner).
In June, Bell Helicopter’s Vice President of International Military Sales Rich Harris announced that Pakistan would receive its first three AH-1Z by the end of 2017. The remaining nine will be delivered in 2018.
The U.S. had approved the sale of 15 AH-1Z attack helicopters, 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM), spare engines, maintenance support and training under a $952 million U.S. deal. Pakistan ordered three and nine aircraft in August 2015 and April 2016, respectively.
The AH-1Z Viper is the latest iteration of the twin-engine AH-1W SuperCobra platform, the mainstay attack helicopter of the U.S. Marine Corps (USMC).
The AH-1Z is powered by two General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines – each generating an output of 1,800 shp – with maximum take-off weight of 8,390 kg and payload capacity of 16 ATGM.
The Viper also has 84% technical commonality – in the form of engine, rotor system, drivetrain, electronics systems and cockpit panel/displays – with the Bell Helicopter UH-1Y Venom utility helicopter. As a result, the USMC can operate the mixed Viper and Venom fleets with limited logistics and maintenance strain.
Like its USMC counterparts, the Pakistan Army’s AH-1Z will come with Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display (HMD) systems, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight System (TSS) electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) pods and BAE AN/ALE-47 countermeasure suites, among others.
Notes & Comments:
The Pakistan Army has effectively begun its process of refreshing its attack helicopter fleet, which is built of mainly legacy AH-1F/S Cobra helicopters. Pakistan also has four Russian Helicopters Mil Mi-35 assault helicopters on order, delivery is scheduled to occur by the end of 2017. In tandem with the Viper, Pakistan is also to begin negotiations with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for 30 T-129 ATAK attack helicopters.
These attack helicopters will provide close air support (CAS) coverage to ground operations, including anti-armour, counterinsurgency and possibly high-altitude light infantry engagements.
Each of these platforms will confer the Pakistan Army with integrated targeting and attack capabilities. For example, the Lockheed Martin TSS EO/IR pod can laser-illuminate targets – moving and fixed – for the AGM-114R to engage. The T129 uses the Aselsan ASELFLIR-300T and Roketsan UMTAS/Mizrak ATGM.
This lessens the need for using a supporting scout, such as the Airbus H125m Fennec, for lasing targets for ATGMs. In turn, the H125m Fennec could be repositioned as a situational awareness asset, perhaps by deploying millimetric wave radars or synthetic aperture radars.
Separately, the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have also taken delivery of their respective Leonardo AW139 utility and search-and-rescue (SAR) helicopters. The PAF’s AW139s are equipped with FLIR Systems EO/IR turrets, though the specific model is not known. It could be the Star SAFIRE III as the PAF has been using that EO/IR pod from its C-130Bs since 2009.
75 Comments
by Saad Nazir
when will start making our own military equipment. Cant we use one of these attack heli to study and produce for our self and similarly do with the other equipment.
USA is bullying us cuz it can asks us to do more and then says we are an important ally. They are playing with us however they want. If Pakistan really has a say or influence on the outcome Afghanistan then it should play it for the better of both countries but it must make a stand not become a part of this bully or become a bully and for that we require our own production of defensive equipment including land, air and sea.
Their has to be a starting point and i Think they should start with Turkey and Azerbaijan. They could also add Saudia Arabia but now they don’t think of Pakistan because of their neutral stand on Syria and Yemen.
by Shakeel
The photo’s are a real teasers. We will welcome them if delivered, but knowing that we are in for a rollercoaster ride for the remaining 9. The carrot & stick method of delivery is about to heat up. Hold tight folks.
by Steve
Looks nice! We need more of these. With 1000 Hellfires I would be surprised if we induct 12 only. A fleet of 20-30 will do nicely. We need to explore upgrading with mmW radar eventually. America needs to be managed with tact and clever political and diplomatic moves rather than a one dimensional military relationship only. Competent civilians needed, which in our country had been a bit of an oxymoron historically.
by Steve
Agree your point about Af settlement. Problem is Tajiks/Panjsheri’s egged on by India are not playing ball and want a military and political victory over the resistance just so that India retains its foothold in that country, and repeatedly thwart a political settlement. Hence the delay and continued bloodshed in Af. They conveniently blame Pakistan and try their best to turn US against us.
by Hammad Hassan
Beg to disagree but we need to produce helos domestically not depend on.others so army’s call.is valid for for limited choppers until we can souece our supplies domestically. The atak is a superb option which has a mmW radar and is coming to Pakistan with alot of good opportunities for domestic business.
by jigsaw
Hi, an off topic question…is it just me or anyone else experiencing extreme lag when accessing quwa and opening pages? sometimes requests time out and other times it takes a while before page loads…mods?
by Bilal Khan
We changed hosting, seems the new provider has fewer resources on offer on the current plan, we’ll upgrade in a few weeks (with them or to another).
by jigsaw
Mhmm…Try AWS?
by kaster
Bilal is it true that AW139 was assembled in Pakistan.
by Steve
I had a few minor delays but page loads on iPhone fine.
by Steve
Dear friend, it takes decades to learn to build quality equipment. Quality is the key. Other powers have been doing it for 70-100 years. China is also a relative newcomer and Turkey is even newer. AH-1Z is a heavyweight while ATAK (Mangusta) though good does not carry the same punch. We face an immediate threat and PAA carefully determine their needs. Stopping Cold Start in its tracks is a priority ATM hence this buy. Too few of a new type just give you a logistics headache without the benefits hence the need for more, in my opinion. The 1000 Hellfires are a hint 🙂 I’m sure we will be buying more Mi-35 too for FATA. 3 attack helicopters types is not too bad. Don’t know if our old Cobras will be retired or will continue for a while. I suspect the latter.
by sami shahid
Awesome…. US has been using the same gunship helicopter in Afghanistan in counter insurgency operations & Pakistan is the first country which will receive this awesome weapon. Anyway, Army should increase the fleet of gunships by purchasing T-129 from Turkey as T-129 is a substitute of AH-1 super cobra.
by Aamir
Very exciting news. In a related topic or maybe this going off topic ( apologies) the last we got brand new gunships I had the absolute pleasure of visiting the unit, this was in the summer of 1985. I visited the flight line and spent 2-3 hours “inspecting” the Cobra’s. I couldn’t get over the fact on how narrow it was at its widest point. It is totally badass. If I remember correctly the sqn in question was the mustangs this was in Multan.
by Amir Timur
Under no circumstances can Pakistan allow Kabulis and Farsiwans to dominate Afghan soil. Takij Panjshiris such as Amrullah Saleh are hawkish in their outlook and will endure all troubles to destabilize Pakistan. Earlier, it used to be saboteurs like the Al Zulfiqar group and Afghan nationalist secessionists, now it’s disillusioned Pakhtun Islamist fighters like the TTP, JuA, LeJ and ISK. While our own efforts with regards to COIN ops and initiatives such as the NAP, Madrassa registration, curriculum reforms and FATA’s integration are vital, we need to ensure a denial of sanctuary to terror. Plans to fence the Durand line must continue, in fact they must be pursued with greater vigour. We need to implement advanced technology to build a surveillance grid on the AfPak border. Something on the lines of the CBMS, an Israeli smart fence that the Indians are building on the LoC. The FC must be deployed and fortifications built in larger no.s as well. Afghan refugees, even registered ones must also be deported systematically. The military needs to ensure better cohesion between Intel agencies, with the ISI sharing and acting alongside local LEAs and paramilitaries. If we aggressively engage in hot pursuit and direct action across the border in Paktia, Kunar and Nangahar, the intention is made clear. Finally, the HQN and the Shura, whether in Quetta or Pesh, needs to be hard pressed for settlement alongside contained offensives across rural Afghanistan and stepping up attacks in larger towns. Only then will the NDS yield. Long term, we need softer measures as well. We could potentially triple our trade with Afghanistan upto $5 billion. Diplomatic outreaches and mutual strategic understanding has to be reached with Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, and Central Asia in general. The CPEC card and Chinese, Turkish and Iranian help could be good here. Political settlement in the Makran coastal belt in Baluchistan and complete mainstreaming of tribal Pakhtuns into the federation is quintessential. I always felt that the key to all security situations west of the Indus must be modelled around the FC. It can’t continue to engage in hard tactics and needs to be a lethal, but proportionate force to fight both conventional and sub conventional threats. Its lack of presence in western Baloch regions has resulted in strained Pak Iran ties. Afghanistan though, had always been a battle of proxies and must be fought as such. It is crucial to cool down our western front in the long term.
by Salman
Hi,
IMO there is nothing good about this deal.
Take away the 1000 hellfires ( $ 100,000 per unit. Total $ 100 million) and the remaining $ 852 million for just 15 helicopters !!!!
That means that each helicopter costs $ 56 million per piece, which is more than double the cost of frontline fighter JF17 of $25 million !!!
If this is under FMS for the full cost, then it is another over priced useless offer.
If Pakistan is paying for it (even partially), it is the most stupid waste of limited funds for defence.
It is a way to bleed the defence funds for useless things. Like the Navy had spent close to $80 million on purchase of hovercrafts (does PN not have better priorities than hovercraft toys?)
It cost Pakistan $ 500 million to develop the JF17. Instead of spending almost double the amount of $ 852 million to buy just 15 helicopters, Pakistan could develop its own helicopter program in cooperation with another country or on its own
(If the claims of indigenous development of missile and other programs is true. Otherwise if these were lies and we cannot run an indigenous development program on our own, then the country is screwed)
If someone argues that these are needed now, the answer is that the world has not collapsed for PA till today without these.
This is not a toy for children that they cannot wait. Money does not grow on trees. There are more important defence development programs (including indigenous) than this. After all PA waited 10 years for attack drones without the country collapsing.
If Pakistan is paying for this from own funds, then it is a very very irresponsible purchase.
by Bilal Khan
Bear in mind the price listed in these contracts include both the platform and after-sale operational, maintenance and support costs. It’s the same for the JF-17. While the flyaway cost may be $15-20 m per plane, the amount being spent per fighter (over the long-term) is higher. It’s the same rule for the AH-1Z. That said, the JF-17 is still going to be a bit cheaper by virtue of the parts and labour being in Asia (China or Pakistan), but the price you see for the AH-1Z is in line with the industry average (notwithstanding China). Pakistan is also to start talks with Turkey for the T129 which could see PAC do parts manufacturing (and I imagine maintenance and support work). This will be a hair lower cost than the AH-1Z, but at least the support money is going to be spent internally instead on imports.
by Bilal Khan
Not that I am aware of.
by Salman
Who’s this other Salman lol
by Mani Hussain
Pakistan military is stupid , rely too much on USA aid , pays too much price for weapons & is bleeding the nation .
Instead, it should divert all these scarce funds into real fight ….that is to develop its own economy by educating its youth through compulsory schooling & universities .
Pakistan needs to learn from all emerging powerful countries , strength lies in not buying expensive military equipment but economic superiority . Wealth is more potent than bullets.
by John Rue
Nothing beats Apache Gunship. India has got 22. 39 more are expected to be purchased.
by Bilal Khan
I don’t agree with slogans. To put it simply, the root problem isn’t a binary competition between defence and development, but between corruption and sincerity. Pakistan with not succeed without sincere governance. To get past my own slogan, let’s imagine if Pakistan did spend lots on education. I will guarantee you that in Pakistan’s current environment, that talent will be searching for jobs overseas. Why? Because Pakistan’s political leadership has (for a very long time) failed to build lucrative overseas markets, secure capital for investment in the right industries and build the right infrastructure to support the engine.
Now defence has been heavy burden, but it isn’t as if Pakistan’s political leaders were only working with scraps here… No one asked them to import BMWs and ride them around for their own political rallies, or mismanage publicly owned enterprises such as PIA and PSM, or defer to the *understandably) cutthroat private sector for energy.
by jigsaw
Sorry but I think it’s not the military that is stupid but people who manifest this superficial understanding of matters. Try to imagine this. It’s the 17th continuous year of Pakistan’s WoT. Around 18 percent of the budget is used for defence spending including pays, salaries, internal and external conflict handling, COIN ops, as well as procurements.
Ever wonder where the remaining 82 percent is going?
I’ll give you a hint but you already know the answer. Panamas and British virgin islands and a two dozen more offshore places.
Is it military’s responsibility to educate nation or civililan’s? The only responsibility they were given is to run the country, heck they screwed it up too.
Even a person like Ishaq Dar is on record saying Pakistan has 200 billion USD in Swiss banks. Estimates point to around 1 trillion USD Pakistani money looted through corruption and sent abroad in money laundering. Pakistanis today own probably the most properties in UAE and middle east.
Do you people even think about what you say or has the ruling elite completely blinded you from facts on ground?
A short answer to your question is…You probably wouldn’t be sitting in your home typing this comment if it wasn’t for that spending on military and defence.
It’s time you stop being confused. Oh and btw, all “emerging powerful counties” have even powerful defence and military spending.
by salman - the other one
To Bilal’s reply. Agreed that the $ 852 million includes maintenance and spares but the major fact remains that at $28 million it is more expensive that a JF17 frontline fighter
On the one hand, PA and other establishment keep crying that there is no money, and ridiculous claims like ‘if the govt. gives us money then our super human scientists can develop this or that’.
As an example, the missile program has been around for over close to 27 years. Pakistan is not a new kid on the block. Yet there has been no indigenous success for a medium altitude air defence missile let alone a high altitude one. The main reason advertised is govt did not give us money. The answer is …when you get funds, look what you squander on. Close to a $ 1 billion on some imported helicopters.
The next episode of this drama is to purchase another overpriced platform from Turkey. If they buy 50 mushak prop planes, that does not mean Pakistan has to buy a $ 1 billion overpriced turkish helicopter even if we get to have the ‘honour’ of manufacturing few small parts in PAC. Thats no deal !
Pakistan has been making doors and bumpers of cars like toyota etc for decades, but no engine, gearbox or anything significant. A country at 70 years cannot produce a car !!
There are at least 10 so called manufacturing lines for motorcycles in pakistan and not one makes the engine !
PA keeps patting itself on the back claiming that we do so much in so little… that PA is making sacrifices in upgrading systems and making ado with current.
When they get money, they spend it on ridiculous things.
Take the example of the infamous Al Khalid tank project. So much money spent over 20 years for a practically imported tank. The engine has been imported. The main gun was imported (local manufacture started 10 years after the tank was declared fit for induction).
PA did not bother to purchase the engines from Ukraine for the TU80 in 1990’s when Ukraine was desperate to sell
The drama does not end here. The most ridiculous situation is that PA did not bother to purchase the local overhual setup for the engines for past 20 years !! It is only recently they signed contract.
Now there is talk of pakistan buying another Ukrainian tank !!! cant believe it
There are repeated stories of wrong priorities, laziness, incompetence.
This is squandering of time, money and resources IMO
There is no substitute for development of indigenous helicopter program. There is no ‘later we will do this and later we will that’ ……procrastination & laziness.
Another ridiculous term used is ‘interim’ or ‘short gap’ arrangement. Money does not go on trees. You are not buying toys for children… beta abhi ye pistol le lo, baad mein aap ko thoop (canon) le ke doon ga
The solution IMHO is to use the earmarked funds for any turkish helicopter for pakistan’s own program. The world is moving very fast. The country cannot afford to procrastinate and there is no substitute for local development.
PA can wait !Their world has not collapsed without the ‘beautiful’ turkish helicopter and will not collapse
Bilal, not sure if you would agree with some of the points above, but anyway request you to please write a detailed article on this with your sharp analysis.
by Shakeel
Salman you make some valuable points. Appreciate your input. I think to go it alone on the helicopter is a non-starter. Pak requires a partner country to work with.
A concerted effort must be made on the ENGINE front. We have not even managed to produce a credible short range surface to air missile. Medium range is a distant thought.
The Saab 2000 Awacs look promising, and so does the AW139.
On the whole you raise some good points.
by Steve
Good comment, highlighting some of our institutional problems. However I’m sure you are aware we cannot develop a helicoptor by ourselves. Iran and India did it, and the product though functional is not high quality. That’s the problem with defence production. Do you accept a second rate product as it is indigenous and wait years for quality to improve or you shortcut and buy from abroad. China, India and others have all faced the same dilemma. That’s why India is clamouring for TOT and trying at Modi level to convince foreign countries to make in India. You don’t want your indigenous tanks, planes etc to be blown apart by your adversaries better quality imported stuff in case of war. Problem is nobody transfers critical technology like you said. Joint ventures are the fallback that all countries use and then it depends on your negotiation as to how much they will transfer. It’s a slow process like Tejas and Arjun have shown, and no immediate solution unless you are like USA and other white longstanding allies like U.K. or France or Israel. Then you are treated as equals and given everything on a plate. That’s why India and to some extent China is having so much trouble making quality stuff. I’m taking about jet engines and AESA radars and composites, not wheels and nuts and bolts. Pakistan can only hope to get involved in joint ventures with natural allies like Turkey and longstanding allies like China and hope to learn how to make stuff.
by Steve
A lot of people are whining about our military and making general comments about the state of the country. The military is probably the only institution that functions properly and it is difficult to maintain that as it also reflects the country. The military is not from abroad and it’s great that they have a semblance of merit and governance. It may be also good to remember that Pakistan faces an existential threat from both East and West, and that is not fiction. We have examples of countries which have been destroyed recently because they were not nuclear armed or weak militarily. Examples start from Vietnam/Cambodia to Bosnia/Kosovo to Iraq/Syria/Libya/Yemen, the list is long. Like somebody said we would not be typing criticism of the military were it not for the shield they have provided for the last 70 years. We have a long and difficult road ahead and without good leadership we cannot even take the first step. That is a seperate discussion altogether.
by Steve
Good for you. It is roughly equal to AH-1Z Zulu, so as always we are maintaining a balance.
by Steve
Knowledgeable comment. We have learned something from it. Thanks
by Steve
Apologies for off topic. Problem also is that any of our politicians who gets defeated or kicked out for any reason immediately becomes anti-Pakistan and attacks the very motherland that gave him position and benefits, and whose resources and assets he stole. That fat toad Altaf Hussain is today meeting the most anti-Pakistan rabid Indian agent American congressman to undermine Pakistan. We have traitors under every rock like worms or scorpions. Hussain Haqqani is another. Khan Kalat and Bramdad are others. Even BB, to be fair, went to India when she was kicked out and made some pretty weird statements. Let’s see if NS goes to Delhi to bow to Modi now. I’m straying into territory I’m not an expert on and apologies if it offends some people. Just shows how rotten our political class is and how easily they can betray the motherland. No wonder all they want is to loot the country and hide money abroad, and live like kings while they rule our country. The whole bloody lot should be thrown in a dungeon forever. Also goes to show how uneducated and clueless our public is, who keep electing these b….ds. Any Western politician doing that would be signing his political death warrant but not this lot, as our public has no memory and no sense. Sorry for the rant. Bilal delete if you wish.
by Steve
We had the same problem with Shakeel. One changed to ‘superior’ Shakeel to avoid confusion lol
by Shakeel
Steve has got my vote folks. Hum ko kya chaya? Steve Chaya..Your finger is on the pulse. Steve jee Zindabad!
by Headstrong
https://www.dawn.com/news/1352421/the-military-mind
by John Rue
Why its good for me. I am not Indian. Pakistanis live in the delusional state of mind so I have to point out Indian strength and Indian buying power to them.
by Steve
“This is Democracy”
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/may/29/kashmir-india-police-state
by Headstrong
I’m not implying anything. Just telling you straight that blind faith in any organisation, far less the army, is a recipe for disaster. Appears there are enough in Pakistan as well advocating the same. A few days ago Asma Jehangir had also put forward some very valid points.
Having any institution (which runs the country) corrupted and inept is bad enough, when said institution is the army, the implications are far greater.
by Steve
Fair enough. Your sympathies lie with India. Everyone has a right to support whichever country they wish to. It would be good not to criticise Pakistan in the process though. It does not make sense. Bilal this is benign so allow it please…
by ali amanat
Very true and preciced analysis also looks bleak in near future after 70 years still we are begging for loan credits for big tickets, there is no Research and development in any field, our engineers are just officers doing nothing .
by jigsaw
Oh no. I’m the last person to have a blind faith in any organisation, you bet but you probably see all Pakistanis in a manner depicted by Indian society, which is largely influenced by Indian media. Excuse me, but that depiction is purely based on hatred and enmity. Sorry but you damn well know it’s the truth.
I can safely say that Pakistanis are one of the most self critical people in the world and Indians least. And not that i need to explain but neither me nor majority of Pakistanis support any army takeovers or running the country – that includes the army itself too. But i won’t get into all that since the core problem here is, where my criticism is for the good of those institutions and the country eventually, your criticism is largely on the negative side and has its roots in the destruction of the institution called Pakistan Army – for it’s the thorn in many Indians’ side. Trust me, internet speaks for that.
Your comment is assumptive at best and you didn’t really get a gist of my comment either. No one is seeking any coups but no one is supporting giving free hand to corrupt and thugs in the country. Divert your attention from obsessing about Pakistan army to political elite and that’ll be it.
by Steve
You completely misunderstood the point mr headstrong. We are not happy with the efficiency of our civilian institutions, as they have problems like for example in India, South Africa, and a lot of other 3rd world countries, now or in the recent past. Our political class is also corrupt like in the said countries to a greater or lesser degree. That does not translate into a desire for military rule. Pakistan has a mature civil society and a robust media forming a consensus on a national narrative and by all accounts a military takeover is impossible in current circumstances. Neither is there is desire in the army to take over civilian duties and manage the political bickering that comes with it. The very fact that the people you quote living in Pakistan you are able to openly criticise the military shows how free we are, and how the military cannot stop them from doing so. Pakistanis have a big mouth and sometimes open that without engaging their brain, they also love to whinge, but that is by and large, harmless. I can however, assure you they are not your allies, neither is that an opening for you to exploit for anti-Pakistan propoganda.
Of course where there is a security threat we give security services free rein, like you do. We have given them a greater say in our arms industry and procurement as that is better and more effective than your labyrinthine bureaucratic system which by your own admission is inefficient. The military though not saints, have much less corruption and it is tolerable in the current circumstances. Pakistani’s have blind faith in nobody, including the army, and by nature are inclined to challenge authority. They are also very tough and resilient, despite setbacks in the past, and shake off problems which would have destroyed other countries’ fabric of society. Remember, we ruled the subcontinent for 1000 years, and the roles of the two communities historically will give you a hint. The armed forces have had a political say in the past for a variety of reasons, some external and some internal but we are fixing them and building robust institutions, and welcome constructive criticism but not from sworn adversaries (some would say enemies), who only want to cause us damage in every possible way. Please pass this on, it’s a free lecture on Pakistani psyche.
by Headstrong
Now, don’t bust a gut. I have my opinions about you people – and it’s not all based on what I read, not least in the Indian media. It’s from what I’ve learnt from speaking with and engaging with many Pakistanis (not in Pakistan though). But what I’ve written above is based on what I’ve read right here – including the comments on this particular article.
And I could well turn around and tell you exactly what you’ve written above – after all, from what I read here, India and the hate for it gets woven into every comment from you people, regardless of context. Ironic that you speak about obsession 🙂
I know that anything critical about the Pakistan Army has been prohibited – so I can guess where all this springs from. Spare me the homilies regarding being the most self-critical people in the world. You know you don’t believe that.
There’s being honest to yourself – and then there’s being honest. Just saying…
by Headstrong
Desire for military rule is exactly what you people have craved – off and on. And you got it. Many of you people even yearn nostalgically for the military rule of yore. Those were apparently the ‘golden years’ lol!
Spare us the blah that the army doesn’t want to take over. They’d do it in a heartbeat – except, in this day and age, it is unacceptable. They’ve had the experience of being made a pariah due to their eagerness to don the mantle of power and have resorted to the method of ruling from behind. Can you deny that it was behind the ouster of Nawaz Sharif? Can you deny that it was behind IK and his shenanigans? They may permit the civilians to believe they run the country and may even keep off most areas – but in areas where it really counts, you know who holds the whip. A military takeover is certainly possible in Pakistan. Anytime. But it would be counter-productive and the generals know it. Anyway, why takeover when they hold the reins anyway?
Openly criticise the military? Is that even possible? I read PEMRA had passed some regulations regarding that – in media, print, electronic and social. Of course, good luck to PEMRA enforcing that, but it’s there.
I suppose I shouldn’t even be bringing in its commercial ventures here…
It didn’t take you too long to get to the ‘we ruled the subcontinent for 1000 years’ bit 🙂 We’ve debated this before and, needless to say, your delusions about this ‘we’ (when India has as many Muslims as Pakistan) continues unabated. No doubt this longing for those days is at the root of your hatred.
Don’t feel shy to say the word ‘enemy’ – you say it every other comment anyway. Indeed, you find a way to bring in India into every comment of yours, so why back away now?
You’re right about one thing though – there are some braves who do raise their voice when required. I have the utmost respect for Asma Jehangir and her forthright views. Yes, she has strong views on India too, but that’s ok – only par for the course.
Your cue, ‘Steve’, to engage in some more whataboutery…
by Steve
Could not have said it better myself. Well done Mr. Jigsaw. Respect! There you go mr headstrong; independent concurring views, almost good enough to come out of an official think tank publication lol.
by jigsaw
…and every time you speak, you take your hatred to new levels. Well… what do i need to prove more here?
Just don’t kill yourself in all that hatred you barfed up, against Pakistan, Pakistanis, on a Pakistani forum.
On a serious note, there’s a felon ruling your country – the kind of desire “you people” have always craved for. It’s time “you people” spend time on own house than obsessing over next door. It’s really not your business whether Pakistanis choose military to rule their country or a Caliphate or Democracy or a Santa.
by jigsaw
I’ll tell you what. You’re only about you people and all. You’re wrong 100% of the time about Pakistan. The reason is your extreme hatred and burning desire to see Pakistan getting destroyed. Put that on your CV. It’s the single most clear depiction of your personality and mindset.
by jigsaw
I don’t think you understood the reference to “we” in that 1000 year rule…but just solve this puzzle for me now…A 1000 year rule of delusions on one hand and indians calling their dead as Shaheeds. Is it the lasting effects speaking or you really don’t have a quantum of understanding where’s that coming from?
by John Rue
I have no sympathies for India. I keep watch on all developments across the globe. Indians make their suppliers invest a portion of earnings in India. They are also building a local defence production market. They have started with small parts but eventually it will grow. I dont want to criticized Pakistan but they appear to be confused. I dont see a solid strategy emerging.
by Steve
Sir you are rowing back on your previous comments and advocacy for India now. If you don’t mind my saying so with great respect, it is you who appear to be confused.
by Steve
Look why don’t we just accept that we are enemies till the end of time, mostly because of historical reasons, and have not yet reached a level of maturity like the Europeans to get along together after conflict. You guys certainly hate the Pakistan army with a passion. That is odd because the army has not done much to you except killed a relatively small number of soldiers (compared to your population) now and then. It does stand like a massive granite mountain in the way of your plans for hegemony in the subcontinent, maybe that’s where the hate is coming from. Maybe it’s the frustration of knowing you have got very limited options to deal with a tough and dangerous opponent. Who knows.
by John Rue
I am stating the facts. Things are in tilting in India’s favor. Wikipedia page for Indian Airforce would be a good read. Look at the number and upgrades purchased for SU-30 MKI, Mirage 2000, Rafael, Mig 29.
On aviation side, Apache Gunship and Mi-35 are best of the both worlds. Indian Mi-35s have Israeli gear on them. Read the detailed specs and then decide which side has more strength. I obviously dont play emotions.
Now if you talk about India vs China then my opinion would always be in China’s favor. Pakistan was offered opportunity to mass produce J-10s and join other Chinese projects but they were too busy begging US for American hardware. Every time they got opportunity they dropped discussions mid way and went for American equipment.
by Headstrong
Believe me, we know exactly what you people mean. It is exactly this kind of delusion that I write about. ‘You people’ ruled over ‘us’ for 1000 years. Lol. This is the stuff that fuels your hate and warmongering. Delusions of past glory and the accompanying sense of entitlement.
For every deluded Indian claiming Shahadat, I can point you to 100 Pakistanis calling for Ghazva-e-Hind.
India has as many Muslims as you. That accounts for a full population of Pakistan rejecting the idea of Pakistan. However you want to tailor your narrative, that is one fact that you cannot wish away. What’s more, Indian Muslims not only rejected you in 47, they still reject you. Doesn’t go quite well with your ‘ideology’, does it? Once you people reconcile with that fact, we can get to the serious business of progress.
by Amir Timur
Hmm. Correct points made, I’d say. Even today our government continues to massage statistics and keep the public ignorant of inefficiency. Say when the state claims to have increased tax collection, it hides facts such as increasing taxes on already burdened sectors, devastating industries such as textiles and reducing our exports while actual tax evaders continue to stash wealth abroad. When we invest in energy infrastructure, we ignore problems such as circular debt and distribution losses. Even during the past, we’d continue investing in unproductive sectors such as high income housing in real estate, evident by rows of empty plazas and malls. Our defence budget might seem burdensome, but we first must ask ourselves if an increase in the education budget is really the answer that we need. A high defence budget shouldn’t stop us from curriculum reform, seminary registrations, cracking down on ghost schools etc. Plus, for enrollments to increase and more people to attain higher education, it must be a lucrative deal in the first place. No point in handing out degrees and certificates to people when you can’t ensure a proper investment and start-up environment.
by Amir Timur
I’d say the military is by far the most professional institution of the state. But no, I disagree with some people who feel it should evade any scrutiny. By scrutiny, I don’t mean it’s involvement in foreign policy etc. What I would want transparency about are incidents such as the NLC scam, Karachi affair, Mehran Bank scandal etc. Even more importantly, we must pressurize the armed forces to scale back on it’s involvement in the economy via welfare trusts such as the Fauji, Shaheen and Bahria Foundations, AWT, DHA etc. Colonial era practices such as agricultural and commercial land allotments must go as well. I believe we made significant process under Gen. Kayani’s tenures in this matter. But far more needs to be done.
I say this because such diversion is not in the best interest of the military. Even the PLA had to scale back on it’s commercial ventures in the 90’s. This would make it easier to pursue a revolution in military affairs and significantly reduce our officer cadre, ensuring a slim but more lethal force. A good portion of our defence budget goes to provide pensions to retired officers, and RMA would help avoid that in the future. While zero commissions and scams are a rare thing for any military, measures mentioned above are still in the best interest of the nation. We must pave way for improving our logistical capacity, tooth to tail ratios and pursue total defense on both eastern and western fronts through strategic deterrence and modernization for pre emptive strike capabilities.
by Amir Timur
I think the problem is that political parties in Pakistan are not organic. Z.A Bhutto was initially foreign minister under Ayub Khan, MNS is Zia’s protege, even the MQM itself was raised to diminish the PPP in Karachi. Nowadays, it has become a trend to bash IK as the establishment’s blue eyd boy. I personally find some of his rhetoric bewildering and stupid, yes. Knocking down US drones and ending corruption in 30 days are stupid things to say. But apart from his lack of seasoning as a mature politician, his party’s performance in KP has been the best ever undoubtedly. I think if we have more and more regular people join politics, such things will disappear. People who actually want progress for Pakistanis across all sects and ethnicities, classes and genders should be empowered. Other than that, our only hopes are intermittent spells of military rule where matters such as finance etc. are dealt with by technocrats.
by Steve
This is place to discuss our defence projects among ourselves and try to understand alternates and scenarios. We are not into comparisons as there are plenty of that in multiple places on the internet, along with jingoistic fanboy praise of one side or the other. Not many people in the West have much of an interest in Indian army. The Middle East, North Korea or Russian periphery is more interesting.
by Steve
Pakistan should send 1000’s of engineers abroad (any advanced country in the East or the West that will accept) to learn high end engineering and obtain higher degrees, and the government should buy, beg, borrow, steal fully equipped labs and workshops and then expect results. We already have examples of that in our nuclear program, where we have been highly successful.
by Steve
What is your problem with the British rule of India. Why do you not like them and the colonialism they brought. They also were in India for 200 years (about 7 generations). According to your logic they were also ‘Indian’. You claim you have no problem with religion or skin colour. Celebrate the British rule too and criticise Gandhi et al for making fellow Indians go back to England. Do you see the weakness of your argument and claims?
by Headstrong
British rule in India brought a lot grief to Indians (you people included – I notice you tend to overlook that inconvenient fact). A lot of wealth was looted and India was further impoverished.
That said, this is history. It’s an incontrovertible fact that British rule did bring many reforms to India – socially, legally, infrastructure, English as a language. And most importantly, unity. India holds no grudge with the British and we enjoy excellent relations. It’s called letting go – you people could learn a lot from it. You want to tell me where I’ve stated I do not like the British? I may not stay there (like some others here on this forum :-)), but I have no problem with them. Your habit of conjuring facts makes your assertions laughable.
They were not Indian because while they stayed around 200 years, they never took root. And they left. Muslims have stayed. Capisce? Muslims have stayed. As many Muslims that live in Pakistan, live in India. They do not want you. They reject you. They do not want to be associated with you. 70 years ago and now.
What part of that statement do you not get?
by Steve
So by that logic if British had stayed they would be Indian too? Who’s laughable and going though contortions to make a flawed feeble argument stick. It thus follows that while they were here before 1947 they were ‘Indian’, so Gandhi et al were wrong. Great! I really cannot help you mate. The real reason you have no problem with the British is that they have given you your name ‘India’, made the country into one for the first time, took power away from Muslims except for a few states, and gave it to Hindus for the first time in nearly 1000 years. That’s true whether you like it or not. Most of the descendents of ruling class of Muslims migrated. People left were those who just could not move and/or were poor or weak, mostly in the south, away from the killing fields. You can’t use that as a ‘rejection’ of Pakistan and start crowing about it, but you won’t change or see that as your country’s raison d’être is shaped around this. Your hatred for Pakistan and its armed forces transcends people’s opinions or the media. It comes from the mouth of your leaders every day, and we recognise it. We also recognise your attempts to project your official image of a secular inclusive India which the recent government does not follow in deed if it does in word. Your bloodletting in Kashmir is the ugly side of forcibly imposing that flawed narrative on people who do not want to be ruled by Hindu majority India, which is our main problem with you. We have discussed this before and their is no middle ground. Good day
by jigsaw
I asked you a simple question. How is it that a Hindu becomes a Shaheed? Answer me that. Don’t waste my time with your media schooling.
by Headstrong
You’re not getting the message, ‘Steve’. The last thing we need is your ‘help’. I suggest you people help yourselves – you need it 😉
Let me explain something in simple English. Muslims/ Mughals came from outside India, yes. After they established themselves, they stayed. The reproduced and continued to stay. More came in, more stayed. Their progeny also stayed. They became Indian. Comprende?
The British came and set up a colony. Individuals came and went. Very, very few stayed. But the Empire stayed. Ergo, individuals didn’t become Indians. Those that stayed did become Indians. I don’t think it’s all that hard to understand, but you start a lame argument and then get yourself in knots justifying the same inept claims. Laughable!
‘The real reason you have no problem with the British….’
Again, childish and infantile. Does that mean you people have a problem with the British? I’d say you people have as good a relation with the Brits as we do – as you should. Many of you people landed up in droves to stay there too 🙂 As did we, of course. Puerile logic!
‘People left were those who just could not move and/or were poor or weak, mostly in the south, away from the killing fields’
Again, illogical claims to defend the indefensible. 35 million. That is the number of Muslims who stayed behind in India in 1947. You categorise them all as poor or weak? Face it, ‘Steve’, they stayed back because they wanted to. Either that or they didn’t want any part of the idea of Pakistan. In effect, they rejected the very ideology of Pakistan. Deny it till you’re blue in the face, but that is the inescapable fact. And they have multiplied and grown in India. They’ve done as well or as poorly as the rest of India. of course there are issues. But, on the whole, they’re progressing along with other Indians. More pointedly, they still refuse to be identified with you people. Think about it – almost 200 million Muslims, refusing to be associated with the land created for Muslims. No wonder you people exist in a state of continuous enmity. You just cannot reconcile yourselves to this fact. After all, this is the very basis of your creation – how dare they not join you? Or at least want to? Too bad, ‘Steve’, you people hold no, absolutely no, attraction for Indian Muslims.
India has remained secular and inclusive since 47. The actions of some idiots, mostly in the recent past, doesn’t change facts. And there is a vast, vast majority of us who will ensure that India remains secular. We will not become a Hindu Pakistan, much as you wish it.
Kashmir. A well trodden debate. We can cross swords on that as well, no problem. No middle ground works for me, no problem there too. We can do without a middle ground with you people. It would be preferable to sort issues out and get on with our primary task of economic progress for our people of course. But if you people want to keep up the pathological hatred, we’ll manage. We’ve handled you without ANY major damage for 70 years. We’ll continue to do so for the foreseeable future. You can ask yourselves if you people are also equipped for the same.
You have a good day too, ‘Steve’
by Headstrong
I did answer your question. Read my response.
Have the courtesy to answer mine.
by Steve
Your argument holds no water because of the running sore of Kashmir. What do you have to say about Kashmir huh? Again the well trodden atoot ang story is it. That is the root of the problem. Will be interesting seeing you go through contortions trying to defend the indefensible. 😉
by Steve
I never thought that length of individuals staying makes one Indian. The most infantile logic of all. How long is it then. 1 year, 5, 10 years or 1 hundred. The Mughals also imported people from Central Asia, Iran, Turkey etc. which you ignore. Keep up these verbal gymnastics. It does not convince anyone .
by Steve
We know well how much Indian Muslims love the rest of you lot. We know Modi is their hero particularly since he presided over one of the most vicious pogroms of modern times against Muslims with appalling atrocities recreating those of the partition particularly against Muslim women, and the Hindus love him for it. Good to stick it to those ‘IM’…you guys say, using the derogatory abbreviation. Or ‘minority community’. You have a lot of social ills, more so than many other countries all well known in the West, and Muslims bear the brunt. Love jihad, Ghar wapsi, Gau rakshaks, to name a few. Go ahead and deny by saying we are ‘democratic’ and our courts ‘work’ and it is not ‘official policy’, give us more mirth. Many counties have problems but nowhere is it under the table policy by a nationalist (some should say fascist) government.
by jigsaw
Yours is not a question but usual rants schooled to you over a period of 70 years of hatred. Show some courtesy before asking for it – and you’re not getting any with those rants. And I still need an answer to that question, on what basis is a Hindu termed a Shaheed and as to how Indian public, media, and gov runs to Islam to give its dead soldiers a last sense of glory by conveniently borrowing a term from an ideology it hates to its bones.
by Headstrong
Wow! 3 responses. I’m guessing you’re somewhat hot under the collar 🙂 Well, I’ll restrict myself to one. But you’ll get the response – which is more than you can do, after making wild claims and then being unable to justify any.
Kashmir? What’s to say? It indeed is our atoot ang. 70 long years, you people are still trying to get in. Keep trying, that ‘1000 cuts’ fantasy cuts both ways. And you know it.
And your infantilism knows no bounds, I see. Indian Muslims are Indian. They are NOT lining up to join you people. They want nothing to do with you. Nothing. Not in 1947, not now. Not in the foreseeable future. Too bad, I guess your ideology doesn’t hold any fascination for them.
‘IM’? First I’m hearing of it in this manner. Got anything to back your claim? Anything at all? Or are you planning to sidetrack again?
Of course we have social ills. Many. And we’re trying to address them. It would be somewhat easier if we didn’t have a pesky neighbour doing its darndest to whip up further ills. But that’s ok – we’re dealing with said neighbour. Of course, said neighbour is entirely free of social ills. Land of milk and honey is what it is. 🙂
I’m having fun trying to predict in which direction your next response will lead so as to further obfuscate so that you don’t have to answer any of my challenges re your wild claims. And the number of responses this comment will generate. C’mon ‘Steve’, I’m sure you wont disappoint 🙂
by Headstrong
As I said, I did respond but you choose not to listen.
Let me spell it out – India has as many Muslims as Pakistan. Many words of Urdu as well as Arabic origin have found their way into our common lexicon. As you probably know, Urdu originated in India. It is one of the 22 official languages and widely spoken. For some odd reason, we don’t feel we need your go ahead to use the term in any manner we wish to. Too bad. Regardless of how you people feel, you are by no means the official custodian of Islam. You’ll just have to suck it up…
Somehow I’m getting the feeling that I’m not getting any answers to uncomfortable questions I pose. More convenient to pass them off as rants. Sad. I actually thought that we could have had a serious conversation.
by John Rue
Pakistan’s doctrine is India specific so should your solutions not be compared to who you are going to fight to?
by prado
and india is Pakistan specific. so?
by Steve
Robust discussion all round. I believe we gave them a good whacking lol. Of course they may claim victory like in 1965 and have an official celebration ?.
by jigsaw
Still ranting about it? Still can’t see the answer. What however i do see is that you are fundamentally flawed at every level. Get this right once and for all. THERE WAS NO INDIA BEFORE 1947. IT WAS A SUBCONTINENT RULED BY BRITISH AND MUSLIMS BEFORE THAT. Or was the all missed out in your history schooling? You were never there as hindus or whatever you wana call that raja mahrajas, if you must hear it. Don’t ever say to me again Urdu originated in India. Suck up to this before telling anyone: You are not custodian of this land, heck you major landmarks are a giveaway of muslim era. And get this right too. Pakistan and Pakistanis were actually the first ones to populate this subcontinent. That will remain a fact no matter how much you twist it.
On that question of Shaheed. All you had to say was a hindu does NOT become a shaheed, no matter how much you spend your day searching thru lexicons for some sense of glory. Now when that’s clear, take the rest of your day off or life explaining that to your fellow indians, government, and the society, because guess what, that also makes you a jihadi, should you choose to use that word. Told you , you don’t have any understanding what it means – you’re just sucking up to it for that last glory. Whether or not Pakistan is custodian of Islam has nothing to do with you. That is not how it works in a religion free of castes and creeds but that too complicated a concept to gather for you i suppose?
by ali amanat
Quite right sir , our love of american hard ware hurt us a lot always backstabbed even in crucial time , j10 project was an opportunity that we lost and now ever changing air power imbalance between PAF and IAF with heavy investment and high tech acquisition making difficult for PAF to bridge that gap will take a time.
by ali amanat
Very true , and its not going to stop any way.
by Headstrong
Boy! I must have hit a raw nerve 🙂
Talk about getting fundamentals wrong. India has always existed. Cultures have come in and got assimilated into the Indian milieu. Christianity, Judaism, Islam too. But it was always India – the name came later but the world called us one land long before 1947. Urdu originated in India, much as it may irk you people. All Muslims in the Indian sub continent were also Indians. At least until 1947, when a significant number chose Pakistan. 30 million chose India, rejecting the idea of Pakistan. And today, India has as many Muslims as does Pakistan. So all your theories go flying out the window.
One can understand, of course, your proclivity towards seeing everything through a religious prism. But for even you people to say that ‘you major landmarks are a giveaway of muslim era’ is laughable, if it weren’t so sad. There must be some different planet you people inhabit, given your viewing of history. For anyone to claim ‘Pakistan and Pakistanis were actually the first ones to populate this subcontinent’, it takes brainwashing to a entirely different plane if one were to actually believe that. Maybe you were being tongue-in-cheek, in which case I compliment you for your sense of humour.
After all, as an idea, Pakistan is Johnny-come-lately. A wannabe, desperately crying out for attention and praise. It is not a custodian of anything, far less of Islam or Urdu. I suggest you read ‘Murder of History’. It’s by one of your own – Khursheed Kamal Aziz.
Or not. You may not want to let facts interfere with what you believe.
by Headstrong
Ouch!