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New Delhi approves $654.6 m purchase for six Apache attack helicopters
The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has approved a $654.6 million U.S. purchase for six Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopters for the Indian Army.
Reuters reports that this is a follow-on order to India’s prior purchase of 22 AH-64E Apache Guardians (as well as 15 CH-47F Chinook) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in September 2015.
In effect, the Indian Army will maintain a separate Apache fleet to the IAF. In May, The Hindu had reported that the Indian Army sought 11 of its own Apaches. It initially sought to acquire some of the IAF’s aircraft, but the IAF opposed the proposal, stressing that each Apache was essential for its requirements.
Retired IAF Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur told The Hindu that the IAF requires the Apaches for “specific … roles [such as] Special Heliborne Missions and Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR).”
As per The Hindu, the Indian Army intends to build a fleet of 39 Apache attack helicopters, which will join 114 Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Light Combat Helicopters (LCH). The Apache and LCH will build-up the Indian Army’s close air support (CAS) coverage for ground operations.
The Guardian is the latest iteration of the AH-64 Apache heavyweight attack helicopter platform. Powered by two General Electric T700-701D turboshaft engines and can carry 16 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM). The IAF’s Apache order included 812 AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow and 542 AGM-114R3 Hellfire ATGMs, 245 Stinger Block I-92H missiles and 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars (among other systems).
Boeing is also an Indian commercial offset partner. As part of the 2015 purchase, Boeing – in collaboration with Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) – is constructing a production facility in Hyderabad’s Adibatla Special Economic Zone (SEZ). The plant will manufacture AH-64 fuselages and other subassemblies for the Indian Army and IAF as well as Boeing’s global supply chain.
84 Comments
by Khawaja Awais
Delivery will began in 2021 and these choppers will be based on western front..
by Lasit
initial number is too small and the delivery timeline is too far away in future. none the less, its a welcome development for the Indian Army. As per the sources, the initial helis will be part of the defensive armoured formations in the rajasthan sector.
by Steve
Similar to Pakistan’s approach of a heavyweight AH-1Z Zulu and lighter T-129 ATAK to make up numbers. ATAK is arguably more advanced than LCH. The fleets will probably be roughly evenly matched, as both will keep adding small batches. Any short war is increasingly looking like ending in a messy stalemate as in 1965, recent protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. Lot of cash spent all round though, with arms vendors rubbing their hands in glee @ $100M per unit!
We need to buy a few Chinooks for heavy lift, disaster relief etc. If we agree to get involved in the Middle East heavily on the Saudis side we can get ample funds for all this like Egypt, but that’s not a easy decision and can become very messy for our already stretched military. Pakistan army has also got a strong ethical issue with attacking Muslims unprovoked. It took us years to get our mind round destroying misguided terrorists and foreign agents. Good to stay away.
by Steve
Where else! China is not sending tanks over the Himalayas any time soon.
by Jack More
..
by Lasit
AH-64E Apache Guardian is one generation and a class ahead interms of avionics and weapon capacity compared to AH-1Z Zulu. As i understand, AH-64E Apache Guardian is developed to survive in contested airspace, whereas AH-1Z is more for counter insurgency and uncontested airspace. where, the PAF and the army will lose out is in the ability of the IAF and Indian army to field in huge number. as per the reports, Army is looking at 32 AH-64 + 114 LCH, all for the western front.. we are not even looking at the armed version of armed version of Drhuv – the Rudra..
by FAUJI JAT
Rudra will be deployed along LAC(Line Of Actual Control).All Rudra will be equipped with SAAB supplied onboard active protection jammers and MAWS and in terms of weaponry it will be equipped with HELINA anti tank which is developed by DRDO and French Mistral.
by Steve
Don’t agree with your assertion. AH-1Z is a brand new 21st century gunship for the US Marine corps. Pakistan will be the only other country flying it ATM. There is no generational difference at all. That is all propaganda. Please use google and educate yourself.
by Steve
My friend google Apache vs Zulu cobra and learn something. What you are saying is not correct.
by Stan
Good decision India you should buy 200 of these?It’s only money
by Steve
No no, they should buy 200 from each and every vendor in the world. Apache, Tiger, Havoc, Mangusta, Rooivalk etc etc. Makes 1000 gunships. All of them a ‘generation’ ahead of anything Pakistan can ever have. Make sure to include the clause to not sell anything to Pakistan…ever. Joke…Bilal don’t take offence.
by Steve
Are those the same Dhruv that Ecuador bought? What is the performance at altitude like?
by Lasit
A quick search tells me that Apache is much more heavier and slower than the Viper.
Apache longbow cruises at a speed of around 265 Km/h while the Viper can cruise at speed of around 295 Km/h.
While the Apache has an effective range of 475 Km, the Viper has an effective range of 685 Km.
The Apache is more heavily armed than the viper.
Apache is armed with a 30mm cannon while Viper is armed with a 20mm cannon.
Apache has much better avionics when compared to the Viper.
So, if you want quick close air support you call the Viper.
And,
If you want to blow up the entire block you call in the Apache.
by Steve
Dear sir, you have proved yourself that the differences are marginal. Not a ‘generation’ ahead as you incorrectly asserted. Good that you learned something. I will ignore the last sentence as it is hyperbole. Good day.
by savyamalhotra
Though not a full fledged attach helicopter it is a very powerful machine with service ceiling of above 18,000 feet and for your Ecuador jibe, more than 7 countries are using Dhruva including your ummah partners turkey without any hassles
by FAUJI JAT
Rudra is even better than Dhruv MK 3 which we are using in Siachin for light transportation,Ecuador purchased early model Dhruv.Dhruv is improving with each and every generation.
by amar
Hi steve, if you can explain your reasoning behind how exactly is ATAK(which is essentially T129) superior to LCH?
Both of them are in the same league. Also note that LCH can pull off higher payload and to higher altitude than ATAK. Till now none of the ATAKs have flown to the heights of siachin whereas LCH has already cleared siachin trials. In fact it was the first proper attack helicopter to land at siachin. No matter how much you loath India, India is actually at a higher design and development cycle than turkey, for instance-
1) the design of LCH is actually indian
2) the engine of LCH is actually a JV between India and France and is produced in India.
3) India has an active program to design and develop a 1200-1300hp engine. I have personally witnessed the trials at the load cell.
4) indian expertise in the field of composites and aero structures surpasses that of turkey. While turkey is dependent on west for critical composites, India is certainly not.
The only thing that should be kept in mind is, while ATAK(T129) is already a mature platform, LCH is achieving maturity in the form of TDs.
by Bilal Khan
Can you identify exactly what makes the AH-64E able to survive in contested airspace and not the AH-1Z?
by Bilal Khan
Although it wasn’t Siachen, the T129 ATAK was test flown in the Hindu Kush area at 14,000 ft. This was documented by TAI itself and was apparently a big reason why the Army opted for it over the Z-10. IIRC HAL had validated the LCH at 13,500 to 16,000 ft?
by Bilal Khan
The main differentiating features of the Apache/Guardian seems to be the Longbow radar and MUM-T. I’m not sure if India is acquiring the latter (at least the 2010 DSCA notice doesn’t list it). Otherwise, I’m not sure how you’re substantiating the claim “has much better avionics when compared to the Viper …” ?
by Steve
That’s nice to know for the sake of Indian air crews!
by Steve
Bilal the statement is incorrect, the guy almost admitted it, almost…lol. Helicopters are not really a ‘contested airspace’ asset as they can be swatted down by a competent Air Force, and they are not stealthy, the Blackhawk crashing in Abbottabad notwithstanding, lol. Longbow radar can be mounted on a Zulu wing station and MUM-T is not that mature yet and other stuff needs to be bought for it, sending the price through the roof!
by Steve
Sir, please read the post before you start a knee jerk praise of India’s technology. We are talking about which helicopter is more advanced. You seem to have mistaken ‘more advanced’ for ‘indigenous’. Your points 1,2,& 3 are irrelevant to the discussion. You provide no evidence of point 4 and make a kind of open pro-India statement, expecting it to be believed. Turkey has got access to critical technologies via NATO and India has not, despite the frantic effort to convince the West to provide TOT. For instance, Altay is a lot more advanced than Arjun. MILGEM Istanbul class is more advanced than Kolkata class. TF-X has not even got an Indian equivalent. Please google ATAK and look at the specifications. They are very impressive, as are YouTube videos. The best thing is that as we are buying and part manufacturing it, we will get it eventually in large numbers, to even out the balance.
by Steve
Please read a previous post of mine in which I bursted this ‘7 countries’ balloon. I think it was in the PAK-FA article. Couldn’t be bothered to repeat that. It’s unreal, you guys all say the same thing! You are correct in asserting that Turkey is an ummah partner. Soon the world will be saying that with respect rather than as a sneer.
by sami shahid
So Pakistan must wake up as India is increasing its fire power. After getting 6 more Apaches India will be having 28 heavy gunship helicopter’s. To counter this Pakistan must be having at least 40 modern gunship helicopters like AH-1z & T-129.
by MT
Comparing a 2500- 3000ton milgem class frigate with 7400tons Kolkata class destroyer.
India built 3 Kolkata class destroyer with 32 VLS BARAK 8 AND 32 VLS brahmos.
india is now building four 8000 tons Vishakhapatnam class destroyer something Turkey can’t match until 2030
Milgem is only at par with kamorta class Frigate.
T129 is made by Italian Agusta westland and it has negligible Turkish inputs in design, manufacturing minus some munitions
AMCA indian 5th gen fighter platform atleast have undergone its complete design.
India have moreover gained plethora of experience developing 4th gen platform..
Turkish has almost negligible experience of developing any 4th gen aircraft.
by MT
Lch has ROC of 2meter/second at 16000feet and it beats any Apache with the rate of climb at the Siachen glacier.
Weapons trials are only impediment (2-3 rounds trial carried out in Leh, Siachen and thar desert)
although Limited production started in sept 2016
by Steve
T-129 is better than LCH. That’s a fact. Please use google. Believe it or not that’s up to you.
by ahmria
So the US Marines bought a helicopter gunship AH-1Z to not be survivable in battle or contested space? You guys make me laugh. The AH-1Z is designed to operate off marine corp and Navy ships and be able to cover amphibious landings and also escort troop transports amongst other things including targeting enemy armour and command and control assets.
by ahmria
Apaches original mission was anti tank warfare taking out massive amounts of soviet tanks as APCs in Europe so even in contested air space they can cause havoc on enemy armoured battle groups.
by ahmria
You’re wrong onceagain Lasit both Apaches and Vipers/Cobras are designed to be close air support assets helping out infantry and armoured units under fire.
by ahmria
This is assuming the Rudra can actually stay airborne as the Dhruv has a nasty habit of crashing as well as being underpowered according to Indian pilots.
by ahmria
I very much doubt the Turkish military have bought any Dhruv choppers. They have bought and will be license producing black hawks.
by Steve
I think the discussion is about technological sophistication related to helicopters and not size buddy. About ships; it’s just like saying every 203 mm howitzer is ‘better’ than any 105 mm no matter how sophisticated the latter is. General Belgrano was bigger than any British ship bar the aircraft carriers and ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic after being torpedoed (Falklands 1982). Noticed you deliberately left Arjun out of your response 😉 Like some of your countrymen, you are also fixated on the ‘indigenous’ theme. A weapon works well either way. Augusta Westland’s input does not matter, and you will be the first to admit if you are honest that foreign help is critical, repeat critical, to virtually every single Indian program. Calling it indigenous after minimal input is a habit that some of your countrymen share. FYI Pakistan and Turkey will combine expertise, knowledge, technology and industrial capacity on projects, with Western partners or China/Russia providing overall support. We have some experience in aviation. That is the only way we can confront a much larger adversary, who pose an existential threat.
by Steve
Just an observation. It is interesting how our Indian friends get so nervous, or I would say anxious about Pakistan gaining any advantage however small or transient in any field whatsoever. It’s almost as if they fear Pakistan will attack them tomorrow, and recreate the Mughal empire! They don’t do it with China who can cause them a lot more damage. They like to constantly reassure themselves that they are ahead and have more numbers. It is often combined with insults and sarcasm, but with an undercurrent of fear. Maybe they are just being argumentative. I really don’t understand it. Very odd for a much larger country.
by Steve
Well said! We will almost certainly buy more.
by savyamalhotra
That’s very gullible to say watch my previous post in a current conversation & We don’t sneer or have aversion for muslim ummah hope u succeed in your thing, wish that might pave way for one united world
by savyamalhotra
They made a deal in 2008 acquiring Dhruva to augment air ambulance fleet
by Lasit
The Apache is designed to evade enemy radar scanning. If the pilots pick up radar signals with the onboard scanner, they can activate a radar jammer to confuse the enemy.
The Apache is also designed to evade heat-seeking missiles by reducing its infrared signature (the heat energy it releases). The Black Hole infrared suppression system dissipates the heat of the engine exhaust by mixing it with air flowing around the helicopter. The cooled exhaust then passes through a special filter, which absorbs more heat. The Longbow also has an infrared jammer, which generates infrared energy of varying frequencies to confuse heat-seeking missiles.
The Apache is heavily armored on all sides. Some areas are also surrounded by Kevlar soft armor for extra protection. The cockpit is protected by layers of reinforced armor and bulletproof glass. According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.
The area surrounding the cockpit is designed to deform during collision, but the cockpit canopy is extremely rigid. In a crash, the deformation areas work like the crumple zones in a car — they absorb a lot of the impact force, so the collision isn’t as hard on the crew. The pilot and gunner seats are outfitted with heavy Kevlar armor, which also absorbs the force of impact. With these advanced systems, the crew has an excellent chance of surviving a crash.
by Steve
The point is that the same applies to AH-1Z as well. Apaches were used in Iraq and Afghanistan where there was virtually no air defence, but not in Kosovo. They were used in Libya and Syria after a long air campaign. These days the US avoids losses, and uses helicopters only after Tomahawks and an air campaign with fixed wing aircraft have done their SEAD job, and reduced the risk. They did suffer some losses in these places. A war in Germany with the Soviets would have been something the world had never seen and heavy losses would be accepted, as there were 10’s of thousands of Warsaw Pact tanks to stop. That war that may well have gone nuclear. In the subcontinent’s context the equation is different and both sides are well armed but new to this as nations, so who knows. I don’t think they want a $100M Apache shot down by an Anza or Stinger, like in Kargil, by using it in a little half-hearted probing attack. A full fledged ground war after an air war would be the proper context, but again it could go nuclear. To many scenarios to discuss, but I am sure they have been war gamed to death! The other point is an ocean of money is being spent for goals that for the aggressor may not be achievable.
by Steve
It was 2 leased and possibly 1 only bought by Turkey’s air ambulance civilian agency as far as I remember. My previous post as above details it all.
by Lasit
And the best example is the fact that during the March 2003 Iraq campaign, 46 of 58 USMC Cobras took battle damage, mostly from infantry-type weapons.
Source – National Defense Institute, US.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/documented_briefings/2005/RAND_DB472.pdf
by Lasit
A small suggestion my brother, try to refer to research papers, aviation journal etc. That will help you stand your ground with your comments. Google searching wiki article or fanboy blogs are not the most accurate source to base your argument.
The best example is the fact that during the March 2003 Iraq campaign, 46 of 58 USMC Cobras took battle damage, mostly from infantry-type weapons.
Source – National Defense Institute, US. Asset evaluation paper
http://www.rand.org/pubs/documented_briefings/2005/RAND_DB472.pdf
Meanwhile, i am not here to get into a India vs Pakistan debat. The idea of my comment is to share what i know and also hear from learned persons. Would appreciate informative response rather than rants.. thanks
by Lasit
Longbow radar, MUM-T, Ground Fire Acquisition System (GFAS), Datalink with UAVs. In fact Apaches can request to take control of an RQ-7 Shadow or MQ-1C Grey Eagle from ground control stations to safely scout via datalink communications. Guardian version will have weapon fire control for all classes of US UAVs… These are all part of the AH 64E Version..
In fact the list is quite long..
by Steve
Apaches also took damage in Afghanistan from RPG’s! What are your trying to prove with this laughable round about argument. Both helicopters are American made. Apache is older while the Zulu is a 21st century upgrade. Both are currently used by the US. This is ridiculous lol!
Your attempt to take the moral high ground are laughable. FYI…and I am being very patient here, the Zulu iteration was introduced in 2010. The article you present as ‘evidence’ is from 2005. Even if it was current it proves nothing. Don’t waste everyone’s time, and do proper research before you sprout stuff that is simply wrong and annoying.
by Steve
Honestly this is grade school stuff lifted off an article somewhere. If I was a mod I would ban you for being infantile!
by Steve
Please read my post above about MUM-T
by Manju
Your comments below itself proves your theory wrong. For every comment there is an expert reply posted.This clearly shows who is obsessed with whom. By the way Indian dimension towards China might also Change if they attacked us 3 times and that too with lot of political instability added to their country. I hope there is no offense taken an peace prevails in our subcontinent.
by ahmria
I think the only reason why someone would buy even the civilian version of Dhruv would be economic and even then I think it would be a false economy as there are more reliable choppers out there.
by Lasit
Really? And where do you get your arguments from, is it in your dreams ? Your intellect and more importantly your ability to have a debate on factual basis is really poor.
Thank god, you are not a mod
by Bilal Khan
The AH-1Z also has an integrated engine exhaust management system as well as integrated countermeasures suite for handling infrared-guided missiles. DIRCM isn’t mentioned in either of Pakistan or India’s respective DSCA notifications (and the Indian one doesn’t mention EW/ECM systems).
by amar
Yes bilal, LCH has cleared the siachin trials under the presence of CEMILAC officials– kindly note CEMILAC is the military certification authority in India
https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.oneindia.com/amphtml/india/lch-becomes-first-attack-helicopter-to-land-at-siachen-1857693.html
by amar
I did read all the technical aspects before making the assertion–kindly note unlike you I didn’t make any claims regarding LCH being better than the other . Instead I said both are in same league with LCH being able to perform optimally at 16000fts which is a rarity. I have already provided the link in my comment above, kindly open the link and go through the official statement. Now its your responsibility to prove the point that ATAK can do the same.
by Lasit
All Ah 64D onward versions are MUM – T Capable. the Ah 64E Guardian had 60% of operations in Afghanistan under MUM-T (US Army Report 2016), and now they are testing weapon control and fire over MUM-T from Ripper and all.. India is buying the AH-64E version … hope that will help you update yourself .. cheers
by amar
Altay is more advanced than arjun? I don’t understand what exactly is more advanced there but I do agree that we need smoothbore instead of rifled cannon. Perhaps you do not know that a host of other development has taken place in the metallurgy section in India. They’ve indigenously produced HNS– high nitrogenous steel, which will go into the kanchan armour. This will reduce the weight of arjuns by at least 5tonnes. Also note other than engine, India isn’t dependent upon west for any major critical technology. The EO sensors are both indian and Israeli. Whereas altay derives most of the technology from korea.
https://www.google.co.in/amp/m.economictimes.com/news/defence/jindal-steel-to-make-high-nitrogen-steel-for-defence-sector/amp_articleshow/57409000.cms
Also note in India’s case, Krauss maffei did indeed help CVRDE in coming up with an initial design, however all the major subsystems were ambitiously attempted here in India from armour, hydropneumatic suspension, rifled gun,fire control system and now even the engine. However I do think it’ll be a while when DRDO can come up with their own 1500/1800hp engine compact enough and capable of delivering power in such rugged conditions.
As for the altay I do think it’s a great tank–one that is directly based on Korean experience of k2, although Turkish companies did attempt certain subsystems like electronics etc. I am not sure of the origins of fire control system and armour of altay.
As for the TFX, believe me India has done much more homework than turks. A few of my friends are on the project. Freezing the final form of the plane, particularly the wing planform isn’t easy. They have performed at least 4-5 dozen wind tunnel tests of AMCA so far.
by jigsaw
What makes Apache so great is that India has decided to acquire it. It was a trash waiting to be retired before that.
I think that is what he’s trying to convince everyone here including the Americans.
by Amir Timur
I think he said that because the Indian media blows certain things out of proportion. A great deal of coverage is given to matters internal to Pakistan, like a judicial decision or political strife. Because Pakistani media outlets don’t pursue Indian affairs so vigorously and with such extreme rhetoric, it sends an incorrect message of sorts. The kabutar affair, MNS disqualification and IK bashing is quite interesting so it must make a lot of them feel that way. Not to mention how demonized people like Jinnah are in India. I recently saw an ex intelligence official, a Mr. RSN Singh decry why no Muslim assassinated the Quaid, like Godse did to Gandhi. Other than that, I wouldn’t really say Pakistanis are obsessed with India in any way. Old cultural links, cricket, Bollywood etc. is just about it.
by Steve
It’s good you agree with me that Arjun and LCH are not better. Common sense has prevailed!
by Steve
Good choice of articles Bilal. Back to back articles on gunship helicopters has produced a lively debate. Articles placed like that produce more responses. A lot of BS as well but that goes with the territory. Well done!
by Lasit
that “trash” will serve the NATO and US Army till 2040 as per congress report. Retired ?Boeing’s Apache production line has manufacturing contracts till 2026, and then they will upgrade existing samples to meet requirements till 2040, when FVL is expected to join US Army..
seems like you time travelled to 2040 to make that comment ..
by Headstrong
Grapes are sour for a lot of these people, my friend…
by Headstrong
So, no answers ‘Steve’?. You make statements emotionally and without any arguments to show as evidence.
‘T-129 is better than LCH. That’s a fact. Please use google’
‘Altay is a lot more advanced than Arjun.’
‘MILGEM Istanbul class is more advanced than Kolkata class’
Other than using throwaway sentences, you actually did any research before coming up with these gems? If so, would you care to present them, rather than shoot from the hip?
‘Apache is older while the Zulu is a 21st century upgrade’
‘the Zulu iteration was introduced in 2010’
The most basic of searches would have shown that AH-64E is the latest iteration too. First deliveries to the US Army were made in 2011, while the US Army plans to upgrade a total of 634 AH-64D helicopters to AH-64E standard by 2019.
Do you actually do any research or do you respond with comments based on who has made them? The level of desperation, clearly reflected in the language you use (‘The article you present as ‘evidence’ is from 2005. Even if it was current it proves nothing (LOL!!). Don’t waste everyone’s time, and do proper research before you sprout stuff that is simply wrong and annoying’). Ironic, such statements coming from you. Clearly indicates your intention is to troll…
by Headstrong
Nail on the head stuff, Lasit 🙂
by Headstrong
One look at Pakistani media would prove your assertion wrong. Look at any Pakistani newspaper. Any day.
Likewise, look at Indian media. Any day.
Compare the two.
QED
by MT
Lch is far superior helicopter for high altitude combat.
It is much more lighter nd have more agility than Italian licensed T129.
It’s more indigenized product nd cost much less than T129. So india can afford to manufacture 100s of lch.
Well for Pakistani taking pride in, buying a licensed produced Turkish helicopter isn’t a significant achievement.
by MT
Firstly milgem is a Frigate and it’s only suitable for littoral waters as compared to a destroyer which has capability to sail across oceans and sink dozens ships
Can you identify one subsystem of milgem class enjoying superiority over Kolkata class destroyer.
Powerwise, A Kolkata class destroyer is equivalent to 4milgem if you count the munitions on board.
Kolkata class destroyer have among top 3anti ship missile, nd MRSAM.
It’s fire control radar developed by Elta exceeds any of Japanese, Chinese, Korean technology.
It’s design, sensor nd processing system,radar nd engine are far superior to Swedes,Korean frigate while milgem is 1st produced frigate of Turkey.
Qualitatively ,Indian naval industry is a decade ahead of Turkey. Turks started building their first frigate since 2010s while india have manufactured 4generation of frigates nd 3 diff class destroyers.
by amar
Yes I agree LCH might not be better, however what I said was–both are in the same league, but it(LCH) sure can go much higher and with better paylaod and that’s what matters in areas like siachin. Also India is at a much higher technology development cycle than turkey and it’s a fact. Now I can gladly point you out to the research literature, but I’m sure your lack of knowledge and the fact that Pakistan pays little to no attention on research would mean, it’d be meaningless.
Thanks a take care!
by Steve
My comment has irritated you maybe because it is true. You forget it was your colleague’s false assertions that started the whole discussion (that you are quietly ignoring hoping nobody notices). If you refuse to see the truth with a hint, out of malice for Pakistanis and Pakistan, and desperation to prove your third world country and its mediocre products ‘better’ than many others, I’m not here to spoon feed you guys. The jist of your argument could be restated as “India has more population so it ‘better’ than Sweden” for instance. The whole word knows by every parameter of human living Sweden is far ahead, but you in your argumentative self ask for ‘evidence’ to prove it and start crowing when people could not be bothered to spend time to educate you. The debate has moved out of technical and become full of Pakistan hating comments so good day. I allow you to self-declare ‘victory’ like your awful TV anchors. 🙂 another terrible Indian habit.
Your cue to make a really disingenuous and intellectually dishonest comment…mix it with some Hinglish insults and sarcasm it may work! Bilal delete last sentence if you wish. 😉
by jigsaw
Lol. I don’t think you understood any of what i wrote. Never mind.
by Headstrong
Not only not answering but backtracking as well, ‘Steve’? YOUR comment started the discussion – ‘ATAK is arguably more advanced than LCH’. Then you went on to dig yourself further with the comparisons between Altay/ Arjun and Istanbul/ Kolkata. Now you have no answers for the wild claims you periodically make. Lol!
Just like this introduction of Sweden into the argument. You never answer any of my challenges, but I’ll ask you anyway. Which argument of mine suggests anything like claiming that numerical advantage outweighs qualitative superiority? Point out one single statement of mine (or any others here) that claims your fanciful argument. Or is this yet another product of your delusions?
When you have nothing left to say, you resort to the standard tired lines of us claiming ‘victory’. Again, I challenge you to show where I’ve claimed ‘victory’ in any of our exchanges.
Not much of a debater, are you, ‘Steve’? Were (Are?) you the sort of kid who sulks and takes away his cricket kit to stop the game when things don’t go the way you want it to? 🙂
by Steve
Your attempts at sarcasm are laughable. I was talking in the collective term about Indians not you in particular. You can’t tell the difference can you. Your colleague started by claiming falsely that Apache is a “generation” ahead of Zulu, but you deliberately ‘forget’ that. You have not answered my question about Kashmir or Muslims in Hindustan and have come down to personal insults. Also you are quibbling over semantics without looking at the broad picture or even having in depth insight into the issue. Typical of Indians on a weak wicket. I’m bored with this. I’ll let you have the last word if it makes you happy.
by Amir Timur
That’s something I’d expected an Indian to say. As a Kashmiri on the Indian controlled side, I know extremely well that Indians are also obsessed with a sort of wishful thinking that Pakistan is obsessed with them. Just like many think that the Saudis are funding Love Jihadist campaigns in India, and that Dr. Zakir Naik is an actual security threat. You guys can put a thousand Zaid Zamans to shame.
Anyways, I’m not going to fatigue myself by arguing with someone who probably thinks train derailments in his country are orchestrated by Pakistan via local Muslims. Most, if not all of you are incapable of any civil debate. Bye bye and have a good day.
PS: Hum kya chahtay?? AZADI!!!
by jigsaw
Since when has India produced any defence item mentionable or worthy of a considerable international attention? You answer that and I’ll accept LCH is a better machine than T129. As of now, LCH is not even a mentionable gunship on intl market, much like LCA.
by Lasit
Now that you are refering to my comment, hence i am replying to you Steve.
I made a statement that Apache is a generation ahead of Cobra, and has better survivability in a contested airspace, and i supported my statement with all the possible facts and data. Your comment that “its based on false notion” itself is nothing but a preconceived understanding, which you failed to substantiate with any credible hard facts.
my comment were an effort to substantiate my early statement with hard facts, and not for a single moment i diverted from comparing the platforms to a India vs pakistan debate. So, where is the case of “trying to malign Pakistan”
Now, you are trying to hide in sea of comments and claim your statements as unquestionable, without any facts.
i am sorry to say, but most of the comments from you and others were nothing short of trolling..
by Steve
Look you are all adults and even a child can use the internet. I don’t have it spoon feed you info. Don’t make claims with checking. For instance ATAK is better in all parameters than LCA.
Speed 278 vs 265
Range 561 vs 550
Rate of climb 14 vs 12.7 m/s.
Arms carried are more.
I don’t have to spell it out. Now stop getting stressed out and just chill. It’s not like you are going to lose a war tomorrow.
by Steve
Good luck with the a
Apache which is of course a ‘generation’ ahead of Zulu. You both are ducking that statement now that you have been PROVEN wrong and hope nobody notices.
by jigsaw
but you have to name one. still.
by Jack More
Worthy defence products..?Just last week India delivered a 105 meter marine vessel to sri lankan Navy and sold light torpedos to Myanmar.Vietnam wants to purchase Akash Air defence system.Things will look clear only if you open eyes.
by jigsaw
oh oh oh but “3,600 Crores Later, Made-In-India Akash Missile Fails Tests, Says Auditor”. Oops.
Mentionable please – again!
by Steve
Well said Jigsaw! If anyone in the whole world mentions that India’s defence products are mediocre they start screaming, jumping up and down and having epileptic fits. Never seen even 2 year olds throw such tantrums. It’s really immature and does not make sense at all. We don’t claim JF-17 is better than F-16 50/52 for instance. Other nations have had 50-100 years of aviation production so are obviously ahead, but this is lost on them. I have read forums in which they are actually comparing LCA with F-22…seriously! They will bring out all the stuff on paper published by their mediocre agencies and present that as gospel, demanding ‘evidence’ to the contrary. They nitpick over semantics and are hyper-argumentative. If you look at comments here you will see that they also don’t know when to stop lol. The West know all about this and laugh behind their backs but they don’t know that! For Indians and Indian sympathisers…This is a comment to a fellow countryman not an invite to start trolling…yet again! Let it rest!
by MT
The T129 spec is copied from wikipedia and there are nt a single citation to back it so they may not even be half true.
Moreover the entire thread discussion frm indian members regarding lch are fixated at comparative combat capability of lch nd T129 at high altitude.
If you had read the Wikipedia article then you would also know that T129 can’t fly above 6000meter while service ceilings for LCH is 6500 meter which proves our point that Lch is superior to T129 in achieving better ROC at high altitude areas such as siachen, leh.
Low Price nd level of indigenous technological maturation also favors india given Turkish product is licensed assembled with few native systems.
by Amir Timur
Okay fine, stay put with that wishful thinking. But while you’re at it, try and look at how much airtime your media, especially yhr Hindi news channels and now even English outlets give to matters completely internal to Pakistan. Following corruption cases and political marches to somehow connect them to your nation’s security is routine for you. And keep the condescending attitude to yourself, it might suit most Pakistanis, but it doesn’t suit me as a Kashmiri. We know your reality better than most Delhiites and Mumbaikars do.
by MT
Only if you had read entire report.
Report critical of manufacturing quality nd integration testing of the public sector manufacturer
Akash is proven SAM but there are problem with manufacturing practices of indian public sector viz a viz anything they produced.
That’s why drdo are partnering more with Pvt sector such as Tata advanced material, Larsen & Turbo , godrej aerospace for quality precision manufacturing.
by jigsaw
That’s enough call center marketing for Apaches.
Here’s the fact. Neither you make Cobra nor Apache. The only stuff you DO make ends up being a catalyst for more imports and you’ll stick just to that in near or all future to come.