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India commissions first Scorpene submarine – INS Kalvari
On December 14, the Indian Navy commissioned the first of six Naval Group (formerly known as DCNS) Scorpene diesel-electric submarines (SSK) – the INS Kalvari.
The INS Kalvari is the first SSK to join the Indian Navy since 2000.
The INS Kalvari is the lead ship of the Project 75 program, which led to New Delhi’s order for six Scorpene SSKs from French shipbuilder DCNS in 2005. Under P75, the Kalvari-class submarines were to be built in India by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) through technology transfers from Naval Group.
Construction of the INS Kalvari began in May 2009. It was floated in October 2015 and launched for sea trials in May 2016. In March 2017, the INS Kalvari had test-fired the MBDA SM39 Exocet anti-ship missile (AShM) and in May 2017, it test-fired an unidentified heavyweight torpedo.
The second ship, INS Khanderi, was also launched for sea trials in January 2017.
The Kalvari-class is equipped with six 533 mm torpedo tubes for a payload of up to 18 AShM and/or heavyweight torpedoes. In its official press-release, Naval Group states, “The Scorpene is a 2000 tons conventional-propulsion submarine designed and developed … for all types of mission, such as surface vessel warfare, anti-submarine warfare, long-range strikes, special operations or intelligence gathering.”
The Indian Navy intends to induct the remaining five Kalvari-class SSKs by 2020.
Notes & Comments:
India had intended to have the Kalvari-class SSKs equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems by first equipping the last two Project 75 submarines with fuel-cell AIP modules developed by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). This did not materialize. However, in September 2016 the Indian Navy reportedly (via The Hindu) outlined that the Kalvari-class will be retrofitted with an Indian AIP system as part of a refit program in the future.
Its inclusion will enable the Kalvari-class SSK to operate underwater without snorkeling for an extended period of time, potentially weeks. This would make the Kalvari-class a potent anti-ship warfare (AShW) and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) asset in sea-lane interdiction. For the near-term, India may utilize the Kalvari-class for primarily anti-access and area-denial (A2/AD) in its littoral waters. Thanks to the acoustic mask provided by shipping and other activity, conventional SSKs can be difficult to detect in littoral waters.
However, the Indian Navy’s long-term aspirations are to build an offensively capable sub-surface fleet. To complement the P75 submarines, New Delhi released a Request-for-Information (RFI) for Project 75I for six new-generation AIP-equipped submarines. This is to be additionally joined by another six submarines under Project 76. Speaking to Hindustan Times, a senior Indian Navy officer laid out a roadmap for a total of “18 new conventional submarines and six nuclear-powered boats.”
MDL and Naval Group are hopeful of securing a follow-on order for three additional Scorpene/Kalvari-class submarines from the Indian Navy. In light of DCNS’ information leak in 2016, it is unclear if New Delhi is willing to expand upon the order, especially with P75I in the pipeline. However, India’s investment in the Scorpene thus far – from maintenance and training infrastructure in the Indian Navy to the industrial link with MDL – enables it to expand the Kalvari-class SSK fleet with relative ease. Factors such as cost, the complexity and timeline of P75I and near-term necessity (and MDL’s ability to meet it) would have to be examined by New Delhi before committing (or declining) a follow-on Scorpene acquisition.
81 Comments
by TheSchwantzPhenom
Last week on Tuesday (if I remember the day correctly) Indian press widely quoted the Indian Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba confirming that the process of building 6 nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) has already started. He declined to divulge additional details (capabilities, type, range etc.) as it is a highly classified project initiated by Modi government, approval for which was given immediately after Modi came to power. I wouldn’t be surprised if India has already begun the construction of those SSNs, heavily drawing from the technology already utilised in the indigenous Arihant class of nuclear ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs). As by now the Indian naval industry would have substantially matured after indigenously making INS Arihant and Arighat (both SSBNs) and making the conventional attack INS Kalvari (SSK) in collaboration with the French DCNS. However I wish that the Indian navy will look at France for building nuclear attack submarines as a lot of sub-systems would be identical to the conventional attack Kalvari class. This would ease logistics and maintenance. Mr. Lanba visited one of our triomphant class nuclear submarine in marseille in the last week of November. Was it for the future 4 boats of the Arihant class (SSBNs) or for the SSNs (Project 76) is not clear though. Maybe someone from India can provide additional information regarding the same.
by TanhayeekiZubani
1. 6 more Scorpenes are most likely with Naval Group help expected for Indian SSN design and construction based on Barracuda (Admiral Lamba visited France last month)
Thermax India is currently building the commercial PAFC AIP based on Navy research labs prototype. They will try to fix them to the Kalvaris during the 2023-24 refit and if it does not work, will likely go for Naval group FC-2G AIP.
2. The SSBNs are being fitted with a number of high quality sub systems from L3-Riva Calzoni, Elbit to give them good detection capabilities and will likely number 3-4 by 2025 allowing rotational patrols with the K-4 or K-5 onboard.
3. The Indian SSNs are highly likely to feature 2 Arihant reactors if the OK-650 reconstruction fails. First domestic SSN likely only by 2031-2032 with two Akulas filling in the gap till then.
4. Indian uranium enrichment facility at Challekere might again double or triple in capacity to allow India to make HEU for the submarine fleet.
by Jigsaw
Well that means Pakistan’s Khalid class subs continue to remain the most potent subs in the region and with no AIP/Indian AIP on these subs, that isn’t changing anytime soon.
by Headstrong
You’re discounting the nukes. Last I heard, they’re subs too
by TheSchwantzPhenom
Dear friend, even though by and large I agree with what you said I would like to add some inputs.
1.) India has already inducted the lead ship of the Kalvari (aka scorpene SSK) class and 5 more are left. All six would be inducted by the end of 2021. Two more will be inducted by December 2018 as they have already begun trials. I wouldn’t rule out some degree of Russian cooperation as well on the future SSN. India was at one point really interested in the technology on borei class nuclear sub. DCNS of course has the strongest case right now.
2.) Indian nuclear attack submarine (SSN) will be based heavily on the indigenous designed Arihant class SSBNs. As per admiral Sunil Lanba himself, the navy wouldn’t have to start from scratch building a submarine with a nuclear hull. They already have the know-how. What will be required is to modify the attack submarines for conventional attack roles and equipping them with multiple sub-sonic/ super-sonic cruise Missiles. In a recent pow-wow with the journalists he said the first submarine will be ready for “sea trials” in 7 years. It’s not bad as this india’s first attempt in constructing SSNs. On the other hand technological giant US will begin constructing its new Columbia class submarine from 2021 onwards and the first submarine won’t be ready for active service before 2031. Building SSNs indigenously indeed is a time taking process.
3.) As far as I know AIP was indeed offered to Indian navy by DCNS. But due to lack of funds, the Indian navy wanted to go “Make in India” route so that deal never materialised. Nevertheless it is always beneficial in the long run to go indigenous and if IN is willing France can surely oblige.
4.) DRDO recently introduced a NAVAREA warning in the Bay of Bengal from 14th December to 21st December. They even provided the coordinates on their website. If you use google earth you would find that the coordinates from the northwestern part to the southern part in the Bay of Bengal encompasses a distance of nearly 3,200 kms. What does it tell you? India might be on the brink of testing sub launched K-4 nuclear Missile which is touted to have a range of 3,500 kms. Even though they formally never announced it to the media as it is classified. We will have to wait and see if the reports of that test ever come to the media attention.
by TanhayeekiZubani
1. Indian Navy rejected the MESMA AIP for the simple reason it was found to be inefficient and noisy (ditto why the Stirling AIP was also jettisoned), (in fact apparently using Israeli and US equipment, the MESMA noise was picked up which was why the Navy decided the high heat generating but low noise PAFC with impurity tolerance was better)
2. I am not saying a new hull, I suggest that no where. I have always said Indian SSN will be a mongrel mix of the Barracuda and Akula. Where DCNS can and probably might help is with elements of hull design that are sorely needed due to the hull stresses on a SSN owing to rapid power up power down and speed requirements. Means the Arihant hull will need some modification to cope up with those stresses. SSBNs hide while SSNs need to travel fast and attack while being silent enough all at the same time.
3. The Russians never spoke to India about the Borei and the Yasen in serious terms. Even the initial reactor designs they gave were with the explicit condition that India make a land based reactor first and then make the actual reactor themselves.(Luckily my Prime Minister does not work under delusions and was practical when the second Akula was negotiated for in 2015-2016)
4. The K-4 has already been tested thrice including once to full range, so I don’t know what you are referring to. One test was made from the Arihant itself as part of the trials apparently in March 2016. this NAVAREA might be the K-5 or additional K-4 tests.
by TanhayeekiZubani
I think what he is saying Indian nuclear submarines are ‘permanent’ AIP subs too. (though it comes with a caveat as nuclear ‘pumps’ make noise and hence a PAFC or PEMFC AIP DE Sub is always a good choice to have in the navy for littoral-EEZ level ops.)
If on a pure standalone basis you are talking then may be the Agostas are more potent. But then since combat scenarios are rarely simple.
As I mentioned in my earlier comment, the Indian Navy was able to apparently detect the MESMA using P-8s and some of the Indian navy surface assets. This resulted in the MESMA being dumped as an AIP for Scorpene.
If it comes down to such an unfortunate eventuality, I assume on-sea tactics ie Agosta+surface fleet+P-3s vs IN’s surface fleet+P-8s+ Scorpene/Kilos/SSNs will come into play. Unless hostilities breakout by 2024, India will eventually field a dozen or so AIP equipped subs.
PS: Indian surface and sub fleet have benefitted from tech subsystems from Elbit and western vendors such as L3. That is why I said the IN rejected MESMA as the moving parts in the MESMA made detectable noise for these on-board systems.
https://books.google.com.sg/books?id=0rDtCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=mesma+aip+detectable&source=bl&ots=3n4txHNda-&sig=qNmf7gUCxEJOK6jm2O3MP2ctcpc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimjMrsxZPYAhXMqo8KHVL-AIwQ6AEIYjAI#v=onepage&q=mesma%20aip%20detectable&f=false
Read page 100, it will tell you why the P-8s radar caught the CO2 disposal and why advanced passive sonars probably caught the MESMA operating underwater.
by Steve
Pakistan should work on installing a SOSUS type net in our littorals and EEZ to to add to information available to naval command. Provided we have good subsystems and keep upgrading them, our Orions will be good enough for long range detection. At least in the immediate future. Chinese naval systems are quickly becoming equal to state of the art now, so we are in no way behind.
by Jigsaw
Thanks. Reg MESMA – it could be what you say (or could not be) but I would like to see a source (not deductions) for claim of P-8s detecting MESMA equipped subs whereas PN has detected Indian subs recently. Of course actual realities play out in many complex ways – so no system is fool proof. Rest assured, P-8s are critical tools of IN. Nevertheless, non-AIP equipped subs vs. MESMA equipped subs. Still doesn’t add up. We yet have to see actual deployment of indian AIP and how well it will perform. Considering Indian track record, it’s a longshot – also to be realised in several years to come while PN subs are slated for upgrades too.
IN nuke subs also remain potent threat.
Reg 2024. That will also see 4 new subs for PN possibly equipped with stirling AIP or like + upgrade of existing fleet. The balance will be kept, actually considering CPEC drive PN has started to see never before seen upgrades / acquisitions / set up of new bases and threat response systems. The only piece missing is own construction of at least FACs and corvette class ships if not frigates and destroyers – in collaboration or without – considering agosta were also tech transferred and license granted for export to pakistan – to no avail.
I think PN will surprise us with major acquisitions in future. They’ve realized where it’s headed.
by Steve
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/submarines-dcns-unveils-fuel-cell-aip
Does not look like MESMA is ‘noisy’.
by sami shahid
The only way to bankrupt India is that China starts spending more on defense and deploy its military on the border with India.
by MT
India china has large border barrier of lofty Himalaya ranges glacier.
India enjoys massive superiority over china in Tibet s in order to bleed indian economy china ll hv to Most of its Resources from Eastern side to tibet plateaus.
Even in that context china cN never attack nd beat india ..all india ll do is disconnect tibet infrastructure from china nd india china escalate
by MT
Scorpene have lower noise level than Acost
It’s a gen advanced technology with much advanced acoustic noise cancellation subsystem
by TanhayeekiZubani
IDRW is anything but reliable if I am say so carefully. you have nothing to be sorry about my friend.
The K-4 will be tested again for a few times to satisfy the ‘Kasturirangan Metric’. It has been tested thrice and needs another 3 as per the DRDO metric for confirmation. MIRV test is unlikely as a sort of quid pro quo to Uncle Sam giving India military hardware.
The Russians are strong with India because they gave tech and hardware when no one else was doing so. The French have been quite commercial and professional always. However with nuclear technology they have been (i.e Government of France, Areva and DCNS) understandably reticent (I have always said this, nuclear is one path India will have to walk alone and it is best walked alone as then it will put it beyond bullying purview by TPTB)
by TanhayeekiZubani
I don’t know what to say regarding your opinion on Indian R&D. The PAFC AIP is under commercial testing in Thermax India implying it is a decent workable model. We have had our share of failures and fair share of successesin India. I assume contempt is also an opinion and of course you are fully entitled to it whether factual or not.
For P-8s detecting MESMA I have spoken to professionals with hands on experience in the P-8 who have done it and are decent enough to not BS/lie. So if they say Israeli and US hardware can detect even with the P-8Is degraded sensors, it must be true. As you can understand, no navy will openly publish data.. one gets lucky talking to hands on professionals once in a while. again you are free to totally dismiss my opinion as a lie or BS.
Again, about balance, It is an argument that needs a lot of patience and tolerance to have. best not done on internet forums. if you think balance will be kept between IN and PN, then I am happy for you. good day.
by Rolexer
I also hope that happens. But not for the lame reason you mentioned. If India starts modernising it’s military rapidly to match china’s capabilities, the first casualty in this effort will be Pakistan and not India. Your “honorary” foreign minister Mr. Khawaja Asif recently said in Washington- “India forms the bedrock of our foreign policy”. Clearly shows the perpetual deep seated obsession with India. It clearly implies- any military modernisation effort taken by India will immediately force Pakistan to play catch up in terms of its own military modernisation. Having said that, Pakistan with nearly 1/10th the size of India’s economy is more likely to go bankrupt before anything else happens in the region.
Secondly, any aggressive military build up by China won’t be ignored by int’l community. It will invariably drive US, Japan and Australia closer to India, possibly into a formal military alliance. That will be a windfall in terms of the latest, state of the art defense equipment being offered to India. Ever heard of “killing two birds with one stone”? Not only you have one less enemy to deal with (a bankrupt state on the western border who tried playing catch-up) but you will have new and stronger allies on your side willing to arm India to hilt.
P.S. An armed to the teeth hostile nuclear power like India is the last thing chinese would want in their neighbourhood especially with the OBOR project. Not a single bullet fired by the Chinese on the transgressing Indian troops during doklam standoff amply proves that.
by Jigsaw
A basic principle of putting forward a claim is to back it up with a source. If that cannot be done, your claims will be questioned – and a well versed researcher will take that in good faith. That is your first lesson. Neither did i dismiss your opinion as a lie nor did i call it BS. Those are attributes you have associated yourself – whether true or false you are better judge of that. My response is balanced and have put you in a tight spot for asking you to back it up. Like i said, it could be or could not be like that – you cannot say that – i cannot say that – no one can say that unless you have a credible source and data to confirm that – not convenient deductions. You may have based it on deductions or data supplied by “hand on ” pros – i cannot say and why should I? Now i didn’t know you are an Indian, but i guess with that typical insecure anxiety being displayed, it settles where it’s coming from and it just puts me a more doubtful position for all your statements being biased – as evident you cannot stand any cross questioning or criticism on IN. Typical.
Nevertheless, i maintain considering actual performance of indian defence industry over the years, that developing a competitive fuel cell AIP is a longshot for India and if ever with foreign assistance, how well it will perform and on what time frame it comes into service is all a major question mark. You will stick around to witness that. As far as i am concerned, foreign supplied P8s and nuke subs both form a credible threat to PN at strategic scale – and the only time PN will witness a considerable threat is when IN will induct a foreign supplied tool.
As for you displaying your disliking on balance between PN and IN, i’m pretty sure you brain is merely working on a quantitative scale here. On that front you should also account for the number of carrier killers missiles put into service by PAF, but my argument is more on a capability front. Granted PN has not employed any nuke subs at this point but that is all changing in coming years that i tried to explain in relevance to CPEC and emerging threat responses by PN. I believe that nearly every capability required of a full fledged navy will be / is being acquired by PN at this point – that includes major expansion of surface fleet with new systems, shore based systems, new bases, underwater assets, and strategic capabilities. That is the kind of balance that actually matters.
Your last para is a reminder of why indian navy subs were more easily detected by PN recently. Now try to fit that in a war zone. But that’s your understanding and your strategy. As far as PN is concerned, there is no imagination of inducting a sub without equipping it with enhanced endurance and submergence capability. I’m sure on that front, AIP is a magic bullet for hunt and kill missions. The two tier combo is not a replacement or alternative for each other. SSN will not make up for SSKs missions but if you believe so – so be it.
by Jigsaw
The difference here is that Pakistan started inducting MESMA equipped AIP subs back in late 90s whereas India is inducting the successor in 2017, so probably the technology has advanced sufficiently enough to consider MESMA somewhat noisy on today’s standards – and which is why PN is going for upgrades and newer subs with fuelcell AIP for next decade. On that judgement i can understand why India did not go for MESMA – but as of now those new subs come without any AIP variant and that is all where it matters. In SSK arena, Khalid class remain the best subs in the region and PN maintained that edge throughout last 2 decades almost. Indians here apparently are thinking their SSN serve as replacement for SSKs – that should tell what their argument is based around. It’s plain stupid to be frank. What we know is that PN has actually demonstrated tracking indian sub recently whereas how many times if ever PN has tested khalid class sub in indian waters – we don’t know. But no detection has ever come to be known of these subs. AIP does matter – at least that’s what the thinking is in PN.
by Jigsaw
Apparently you also think SSN will make up for SSK missions.
by Jigsaw
Khalid class are not keychains. They are actual subs in service. They don’t come with ONLY an AIP equipped.
We’ll see when an Indian AIP actually equips a french sub. Until then, don’t make that claim.
by Jigsaw
I think they’re going to take care of those acquisitions in due time. It looks like going in that direction fast now. Next 10 years will be big for PN and hopefully with the money laundering levels coming down, we could see more acquisitions.
by sami shahid
Although India lost the 1962 war. China should construct forward air bases near the border with India and even deploy strategic bombers for carpet bombing.
by Kannakeepkalm
Look who’s talking about bankruptcy.
LOL
by Jigsaw
Thanks to scropene data leak and an AIP-less induction for years to come, IN will never be able to utilise those “much advanced” boats to their full potential.
by Steve
I agree, but that site does say that MESMA does not increase the acoustic signature. I don’t belive the Indians have not been tested in 20 years. If they had detected Pakistani subs we would hear hysterical deafening celebrations from across the border, along with threats to use BrahMos underwater Lol!
by Headstrong
Apparently you’re qualifying your statement – now.
‘Pakistan’s Khalid class subs continue to remain the most potent subs in the region’ – pretty blanket statement first time around 😉
by Steve
China does not want a war. Only wants to make themselves No.1 economy in the world (10 years) and also No.1 military power in the world to go with that economic might. That will take somewhat longer. The emphasis of China is indigenous development and already they are almost at the same level as the West. India for all your self created hype is a minor annoyance to them. Sorry to burst your balloon but the scenario you are getting over-excited about means that Russia will finally dump you and form an alliance with China, Pakistan, Turkey and the Central Asian states with an open agenda to oppose your ‘alliance’. Good luck having America as an ‘ally’. We all know what America does with non-white ‘allies’ lol. You can’t become a ‘superpower’ by buying your way to that status (technology transfer hahaha) and ignoring your ocean of poverty as they are Dalits, other lesser castes, and minorities.
by Jigsaw
Shouldn’t have.
by Jigsaw
Apparently you didn’t get hold of the argument after 48 hours even. Well. Whatever.
by Headstrong
A number of issues to address across some of your comments –
1. You do realise that you made a sweeping statement – ‘Pakistan’s Khalid class subs continue to remain the most potent subs in the region’
Patently not true. I brought up the nukes, yet you had no clue and had to be reminded. Now you attempt to save face saying that ‘actually’ you were speaking of SSK missions. There too you are mistaken – SSNs are well equipped to undertake SSK missions, though not their primary role. In fact SS denotes submarine, K denotes Killer – i.e an SSK meant a submarine that could hunt another. When nuclear propulsion came in, to differentiate it from SSKs, nuclear submarine hunters were called SSNs.
‘Indians here apparently are thinking their SSN serve as replacement for SSKs – that should tell what their argument is based around. It’s plain stupid to be frank’. In fact, around 2010-11, there was an extended debate in the US if the USN needed to do away with an all nuclear submarine fleet and instead go in for a mix of nuclear and conventional SSKs, given the cost benefits and hence larger numbers. Who exactly is stupid here?
In terms of ‘potency’, which is what your sweeping statement referred to, not only the SSN but also the SSBN is more ‘potent’. But then, you’ll want to say that the SSBN can’t be used in SSK role 😉
2. ‘Pakistan started inducting MESMA equipped AIP subs back in late 90s’
Again, factually wrong. It was the third Agosta 90B, Hamza, which first got Mesma AIP and which was commissioned in September 2008. Pakistan placed an order with DCNS for the retrofit of Mesma AIP for the first two Agosta 90Bs in March 2007, which were delivered in December 2011. Conjecture is one thing, but getting facts wrong, of one’s own forces? Someone was speaking about stupidity 😉
3. ‘What we know is that PN has actually demonstrated tracking indian sub’
‘A basic principle of putting forward a claim is to back it up with a source’
Both statements made by you. Try observing it. Please quote something authentic because just as you can quote Pakistani sources, I can quote the strong Indian rebuttals. Most probably a false flag – you know? Something you people routinely accuse the US and India of 😉
4. ‘The only time PN will witness a considerable threat is when IN will induct a foreign supplied tool’
This has been your pet argument on this forum. However, you skim over the fact that there is not one potent (that word again!) tool PN has that is not foreign.
5. ‘We’ll see when an Indian AIP actually equips a french sub. Until then, don’t make that claim.’
‘Granted PN has not employed any nuke subs at this point but that is all changing in coming years that i tried to explain in relevance to CPEC and emerging threat responses by PN. I believe that nearly every capability required of a full fledged navy will be / is being acquired by PN at this point – that includes major expansion of surface fleet with new systems, shore based systems, new bases, underwater assets, and strategic capabilities’
‘I think they’re going to take care of those acquisitions in due time. It looks like going in that direction fast now. Next 10 years will be big for PN and hopefully with the money laundering levels coming down, we could see more acquisitions’
You see the incongruity between the statements you routinely make? You would ask Indian commentators to refrain from making claims about the future, and in the same breath talk very authentically about Pakistan’s acquisitions of the same future. You ask for a source when you don’t like a particular claim, yet throw about your own statements with wild abandon, with nary an authentic source.
And while you may want to characterise Indians with ‘typical insecure anxiety’, what you in fact routinely display is the glasshouse syndrome so typical of you people. Keep casting stones and act all surprised and hurt when even more stones come back.
Typical!
by Headstrong
China certainly doesn’t want a war – which is why they’re playing you people for suckers to keep India occupied. They don’t want to be distracted from the goal of catching up with the US. They’ve come to the conclusion that you people are disposable (just like the US did) and hence the present pass…
‘Russia will finally dump you and form an alliance with China, Pakistan, Turkey and the Central Asian states’ – the perennial wet dream you people have 😉 Good luck with that!
What you people don’t want to see is that you will always remain inferior. For all your big talk, you’re nowhere – not in economy, not in military, not in diplomacy, nothing. You want to talk about poverty? In every – every – index, you people lag behind. Not just India, but increasingly the rest of the Indian subcontinent too. Minorities? You really want to bring up that issue again, ‘Steve’? You really want me to remind you of the Ahmediyas in Pakistan again?
Don’t start it if you can’t finish it, ‘Steve’. You people should have learnt at least that much from your abbreviated history
by Lasit
Steve, please use the same logic of yours to explain how a $250 billion bankrupt economy is of any significance in this whole context.
US had some utility of pakistan as a base during the Soviet – Afghan and US invasion of Afghanistan. US dumped Pakistan as the toiletries as soon as that utility ended. For china, Pakistan is a good proxy against India, and thats the only utility. I doubt any pakistani can cite another utility of pakistan for china ( and pls dont blabber CPEC, its a real estate buyout in lieu of an 8% interest loan. )
And for God sake, please don’t insult China and Russia or even Turkey by putting pakistan’s name in between them. there is not a “single thing” pakistan can offer to these countries..
@mods, hope the comment qualify your guidelines
by Steve
You are starting to repeat yourself mr headstrong. That combined with threatening jingoistic assertions is getting boring now. Repeating untruths does not make them true. It’s becoming unproductive and it may put off non-trolls, so give it a rest.
by TZK
This is based on presumptions and China would not allow Pak to go bankrupt as they have investments there and need them for geopolitical reasons. A more likely scenario could be if India starts flexing its muscles would be for China to send some of its advanced weapons to Pak so India is chasing two adversaries on two borders to maintain parity. The west will help India but not for free and don’t forget the west also need China. Weapon suppliers like nothing more than an arms race and what would suit them even more would be an arms race between economies trying to overtake them, as you say ‘kill two birds with one stone’. India could come out worse compared to China as they mostly import weapons.
by Headstrong
I can only repeat myself –
Don’t start it if you can’t finish it, ‘Steve’.
by Headstrong
Largely a correct argument. And it is happening already.
Where I disagree is that China’s not going to give weapons to Pakistan free. And India’s coffers are far deeper than Pakistan’s – so this route would spell disaster for Pakistan,not India.
And don’t forget – the West also has a stake in preventing China’s rise.
by Steve
Exciting times to be sure!
by PewPew
‘the West’ ? More like just the U.S. (due to it sharing the Pacific Ocean with China and Far East powers in general). Europe is certainly a commercial rival of China (hence be weary of losing precious IP and R&D to them), but they are far from enemies or having a stake in preventing China’s rise. E.g. Safran Group has been helping AVIC developer helicopter engines, MTU licenses diesel engines for Chinese ships and Airbus assembles aircraft in China for the Chinese market.
by Steve
Geography mr Indian geography, and the famous warm waters that historically central Asian and northern powers covet, like the USSR in 1979. We have deep relationships with Turkey and China, with Russia increasingly coming on board. Wait and see..your piddly little investment in Chabahar also attempts the same thing, but without the 2nd (soon to be 1st) largest economy in the world. You can supply Afghanistan a few crates of mangos if America allows but be prepared to lose everything as soon as Trump pulls the trigger on Iran.
by Lasit
Geography ?? you need serious refresher course on geography.
Russia needs a warm water port? what a joke. they had been a super power without a warm water port. and even if they need one, how on this earth Gwadar is going to be connected to Russia ? via afghanistan ?. afghans are on our laps for last 15 years and it will remain so.
regarding supply of afghanistan, we are good with two containers every week to Afghanistan to keep the firework going, so don’t worry about the presence or absence of US.
lastly, i must congratulate you for being mentally ready to be part of china. the degree of pride you demonstrate on chinese achievements, not even mainland Han Chinese can rival that ..
by Rolexer
TZK why so many commentors from across the border are so delusional? You talk of China as Pakistan’s guarantor, a security provider, and a bulwark against its arch-nemesis India. And that is not the first time we Indians have heard this. All this talk that China will do this for Pak, will do that for Pak, it could be this for Pak, would be that for Pak…. has been going on since the 1960s as far as i can remember. Only talk and false prophecies as far as China is concerned with little to no actions to back it up. If i may ask, where was your all weather friend China during 1971 war? Where was China in supporting and supplementing Pak as recent as the Kargil war of 1999? They could have easily opened up a eastern front with India or exerted diplomatic pressure on India but they were nowhere in the scene. Inspite of such growing conventional difference between India and Pakistan, why China still has not exported its potent twin engine fighters like J-15, J-11, Type-99 MBTs etc. to Pakistan? They should have gifted it to Pakistan for free dont you think, to atleast reduce the huge imbalance with India. After all you guys boast that your friendship is “higher than mountains and deeper than ocean”. Hardly seems justified. Inspite of such simmering border tensions which China has with India (including the recent Doklam standoff), China has done little to prop up Pakistan to exert pressure on India’s western border. Your comment has little to no semblance with reality. You, like some of your friends here day dream and come up with ludicrous theories. On the other hand Quad is very much a real thing with the meeting held twice every year. Just a matter of time before we see a formal alliance come into being. Just as a humble advice, stick more to reality and talk facts rather than make suppository statements and ludicrous hypotheses.
by Jigsaw
Hey why don’t you use that desperate rebuttal attempt to persuade your own navy to use their SSNs in SSK role and do away with Scorpenes especially when an Indian AIP is as real as a santa clause and your enemies are anyway benefitting from that data leak – and since you’ve got it all figured out from a US debate!
P.S: Learn the difference between announced deals and “secret info from hands on professionals”.
by J.Arandas
Ever want to see a kindergartner throw a tantrum after he has been robbed of his candy? Well ladies and gents, come to quwa and watch steve react after he has been told the truth about his country.
As far as minorities, daits etc. in India are concerned (even though they may be a bit exaggerated) they existed way back in 1971 as well. But India did just fine in putting a new country on the world map. Therefore i dont realise how it is supposed to make Pakistanis and other laypersons like you feel better about their country?
Secondly, the way you talk about america and their treatmet of “non-whites”… looks like the scars of the grand dumping of pakistan by US are still fresh. Some sections in Pakistan are still not able to fathom that they have been used and used very badly like a disposable commodity by their age old strategic ally, who is now treating india in a way it never treated Pakistan. So sorry for you steve. World is not all fair and just, my man. The sooner you learn to deal with it the better it will be for you as this sad predicament of your country is not changing anytime soon. Oh btw, last time i checked saudis and arabs were getting some out of the world treatment from US, even though they are anything but whites. I dont know why Pakistan always gets the short end of the stick?
by Jigsaw
Listen. Offer your not-so-domestic Scorpenes with a domestic AIP first – the topic at hand here. What Pakistan can or not offer to a country is a bigger question than your perpetual little hatreds sweating out on every thread – be it about pancake making. That “real estate” CPEC giving you Fatal Familial Insomnia and Stendhal Syndrome will probably be completed three decade before you get that Desi AIP in place – before it blows up those not-so-domestic french subs to smithereens. Deal with that next-on-the-list insult first instead of wishing insults for your neighbours!
And just so you know what really is insulting to people of this region and those countries you named? That abhorrently negative mindset nations like yours possess and continues to display it without halt.
by Steve
Good to see you are openly admitting that India is supporting and sponsoring terrorism. The mask finally drops. Pakistan’s narrative on Indian terrorist activity in Afghanistan and Baluchistan is being openly admitted by jingoistic Hindus and their nationalist leaders because of their arrogance. India is terrorist….period.
by Steve
China has helped with strategic weapons, missiles, subs, tanks, planes, and the ability to give you a bloody nose…;-)
by Jigsaw
And that TED talk apparently just made the lone 4th world of India a superpower in matter of sentences! Some wet dream you talk of. For all i can see, you can’t help to dispose off yourself for a little while from a Pakistani forum. Day and night you mouthing off hate about one or more neighbours of yours keeps the world reminding how small you people actually are!
As if there isn’t a purpose to your out of sorts lives!
Don’t you ever use mirrors to self ponder!
by MOHAMMAD HARIS FAHIM
If India is so much a mighty power and Pakistan so much of a cornered state, so be it. We are complacent enough in your destruction even if that means Pakistan’s own demise. You are perpetually missing the point. Pakistan’s nationhood doesn’t reside on mere survival per say. It thrives on how to block the Hindu Raj this side of Hindukush so that you may never be able to meddle with happenings in Middle East or Central Asia. That has been the truth for the past two millennia. Our nuclear program supported by a robust missile program is capable enough to give you a thrashing which will drive you back to stone age. And please now don’t proclaim stupid ideas about your so called AAD or PAD ABMs. Even the Aegis is not 100% surety for a more consummate power like the USA. SO SUCK IT UP WHATEVER STUPID LIES YOU ARE ACCUSTOMED AT.
by MT
Specification document leaked by DCNS is given to every prospective buyer.
AIP ll be introduced in next iteration. No war in south Asia has lasted more than 14days;)
by MOHAMMAD HARIS FAHIM
What the Hindu Banya misses crucially is that such huge weapon stockpiles is just driving Pakistan more and more deeply into a security nightmare which will ultimately culminate into a more vigorous, creative and assymetrical nuclear program primarily aim at MAD configuration within south Asian strategic environment. Pakistan, if anybody has idea, will going to accept India a policeman of region, then I am afraid such a person has no right to even come here. Strategies are images of deep seated national consciences. A nation who has always considered Hindus unclean would never accept their dominance even if that means suicidal game.
by sami shahid
What you said is total non sense as this topic is about India and I’m talking about India & China. The income of India is $100b from which the Indian Military receives $60b. For sure China should spend more and deploy its military on the entire border with India. US, Japan & Australia would never go to war with China. US will never & India would be left alone.
by sami shahid
Sub-continent ? There are 5 countries in the sub continent. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh “not recognised by us” , Myanmar & Bhutan “ recognised by none” . Now let’s start. I will not discuss Bangladesh as there is nothing like Bangladesh and soon it will recognised as an epicentre of AQ. Mayanmar has killed & raped almost the entire minority of Myanmar. That minority is homeless & now living in East Pakistan & India. As for India, Cristian’s are forcefully converted into Hindu while Muslims get slaughtered before a cow gets slaughtered. As for India – Russia then both these countries are in a conflict of interest in both Afghanistan & South Asia. Indian even allowed Americans to inspect the Russian sub while the American defense minister was taken to the Russian air craft carrier.
by sami shahid
I guess I finished it. You need to behave nicely or you might get blocked.
by sami shahid
And you, you don’t put your name with Russia. Russia & India are in a conflict of interest in Afghanistan & South Asia & in fact, India has alliance with enemies of Russia in Afghanistan for eg IMU & soon Russia would realise it. Afghanistan is a proxy of so many countries you are just wasting your money just like you are wasting your money in Chahbahar. Russia will be connected to Gwadar via China. There is no match between Gwadar & Chahbahar and even Saudi, Emiratis & Qataris would prefer Gwadar over Chahbahar. Indians were trying to create a competition between Gwadar , Dubai & Chahbahar but Indian themselves have killed the competition between Gwadar & Chahbahar. As for Afghanistan, it is failing in its own !
by sami shahid
If Afghans are happy with expensive imports then we are very happy ! If Afghans are comfortable with Taliban in Southern Afghanistan funded, equipped & trained by IRGC then we have nothing to say.
by sami shahid
Why should China give J-11, J-15 or J-16 to Pakistan for free ? Lol Pakistan is not a proxy of China. What do you think China is US and Pakistan is Israel. Lol only US would give $48b aid to Israel along with 2 squads of F-35. But dude we are not israel. We want a better economy along with Security and the size & population of our country is much bigger than israel and China is helping us in our economy & Security. What do you think US would come to rescue you in case India goes to war with China ? Lol even Russia wouldn’t come to rescue you !
by Headstrong
No answers, hey? Again – typical. Maybe you should direct your efforts towards reading up on SSKs and SSNs, getting your facts right on your own navy for a start, analyse dispassionately the delusional claims of tracking IN subs by your people, and discuss nuts and bolts rather than pies in the sky (what you term “announced deals” lol), rather than get all jingoistic every time you post a comment.
by Headstrong
Speak for yourself, Jigsaw. The fixation you people have against India and the obsessive hate you people harbour in your very souls is evident in fora such as these, as indeed does your media.
One can only laugh when you people speak of mirrors 😉
by Headstrong
Don’t get your panties in a twist. India has never had to ‘meddle with happenings’ anywhere. But if Pakistan believes it can stop Indian ventures by physically denying access, there are ways and means to bypass you people and render you irrelevant.
And this bombast about your nukes and missiles and the like we’ve been hearing for 70 years. It hasn’t got you one inch of land. So keep blackmailing away – it has got you people nothing and nowhere thus far.
by Headstrong
At the cost of repeating myself, ‘Steve’, don’t start something you cannot finish 😉
by Jigsaw
Whatever keeps your balloon ballooning 🙂
by Headstrong
There you go! Regardless of topic, forum, issue, the mindset of you people can never be hidden. Finally, for you people, everything boils down to religion.
Apparently terms such as Hindu Banya are kosher on this forum.
And this person goes straight to the nuclear button too.
What more can one say?
by Steve
It is the rise of China that is the overarching factor in your new found bonhomie with USA. The narrative was shaped by USA not by Indians. For 55 years the USA ignored you. Don’t kid yourself that India is in any way, shape, or form special mate, though you have convinced yourself and believe your own propaganda 🙂 and have fooled yourselves into believing you are the same as UK or Australia. A few small examples of ‘out of the world treatment’ you are crowing about; You were not offered F-35 but F-16, at the end of its development. The much vaunted nuclear deal is yet to be practically realised. You don’t have visa free travel to the USA and H1B are being cut back. You are nowhere an ally of the USA like a lot of European and even Asian countries are. I suggest you ‘do more’ for the USA. The less said about the Arabs the better.
by Lasit
well we call it “Strategic Assets”- a pakistani definition.
and you know why there was not a military action to avenge Mumbai attacks ? well, our strategic assets worked overtime to avenge for us on a monthly basis for over 6-7 years. the whole world knows it, including your iron friend China.. but nobody cares. sorry, but the world is very biased.
by Abdul Rashid
Muhammad, kindly do not include references to other’s religions or insults in your comments. If the moderators do not have time to edit out the offending content it will result in your entire comment not getting approved for positing.
by Steve
Using SSBN in SSK role in shallow littorals is the most stupid thing I have heard this decade 🙂
by Steve
That attitude will get your terrorist spy hung, plus the whole world will know that you are terrorists. It will override your lovefest with USA eventually as ‘assets’ will bite your father soon and he will punish you. Just give it time 🙂
by MOHAMMAD HARIS FAHIM
It’s a matter of time. We never claimed world prowess. It was you all along. BHARAT MAHAN….PHOEEY….we broke it apart…now u will say you broke Pak into two but the ground reality is that even our breakup couldn’t solved your problems. There was, is and perpetual threat to your civilization from Muslims in South Asia and that is why no matter who is your prime minister whether an extremist or a secular, you have always tried to eradicate it. As for your lies concerning your designs in Asia else where…wait…who is dying to be a player in Afghanistan?? Who is dying to be a party in Arab Iran conflict??? Who has been pursuing covert relations with Israel?? Who provided bases to USAF in gulf war in return of economic opening??…do you think everyone is blind?? Don’t we know why you are being patted like a bulldog about to be released on some rabbit. Rest assured we know your design. Have a laugh. But the ground reality is that you can’t even take one inch this side without a nuke exchange..
by Jigsaw
The best part is the gang all up in arms defending it.
by MOHAMMAD HARIS FAHIM
Brother I was just pointing out the historical facts….if that’s wrong do correct. But ponder on the clash of civilizations and it’s not something which I or some molvi invented. It came from Huntington and Fukuyama
by MOHAMMAD HARIS FAHIM
What about clash of civilizations…that was proposed by seculars…
by MOHAMMAD HARIS FAHIM
As for nuke exchange, that is a reality. An eventuality to the history of subcontinent. Something being repeatedly referenced by our armed forces and national security advisor. And that has a grave logic to itself when one could see the military monolith across border ready to strike against a cornered nation which has been constantly encroached upon for the last 70 years.
by Jigsaw
Try dealing with the one answer I gave you first because as of now i haven’t heard of anything more stupid than using SSBN in SSK roles because emmm it looks like a submarine too?. You’re the same people who managed to topsy turvy INS Betwa..so why not? And hey you picked it off of a US debate so why not just plainly put it to use eh? It’s American debate afterall!
Thank you for that comedy.
by Jigsaw
Yep you and your gang’s presence here is proof of “my” fixation on India!
by little children
what is “The income of India is $100 billion ” ????
by Abdul Rashid
The comments have to be in keeping with Quwa’s comments posting guidelines. You can read these at the end of each article by clicking on the link. We try to promote a healthy, respectful discussion.
by Andy Markov
I’ll make that claim because India is in advanced stages of designing that AIP. You’re free to go through plethora of online literature available on indian AIP. It is just that it’ll take time before it can be integrated into a sub.
Agostas are no doubt one of the really fine and capable submarines, however between agosta and scorpene there’s a generational gap– one that can’t be simply bridged with an AIP module.
Indian AIP will start appearing into picture(as in fully deployed service) by the same time as Pakistan starts receiving Chinese yuan class subs.
by ahmria
DRDO may be designing an AIP for your subs but judging by their past endeavours with other equipment this is likely to be flawed and India will have to either ask the French or Russians to help them fix it or just give up and buy a French AIP module.
by Manju
Just because you think in a particular way doesn’t mean entire country of India does it. India has never sought parity with China but, India knows how to utilize the home advantage if China comes to play in Indian backyard. Don’t worry China has 50+ submarines and India never projected to match that realistically. Maintaining even half of it would give a tough time for Chinese in Indian Ocean.
by Manju
Well you once again proved your standards. Keep it up.
by Manju
Indian Navy has a different strategy using conventional subs without AIP shows that they would be strictly for defensive purpose while SSBN is for deterrence and SSN for offensive. I guess in that order SSN comes the last. Indian Navy certainly looks to dominate Indian Ocean Region coming decade.