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Pakistan should select the CAIC Z-10 attack helicopter
23 March 2016
By Bilal Khan
The appearance of the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10 Thunderbolt attack helicopter at the 2016 Pakistan Day Parade was interesting. It was the first instance where the Pakistan Army had brought the Z-10 to the public’s attention. As far as the average Pakistani is now concerned, the Z-10 is as much a part of the armed forces as the JF-17 Thunder and Karakoram Eagle airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. Despite that however, the Army has yet to officially commit to the platform.
At present, it is not entirely clear how the Z-10 is being used by the Pakistan Army. Initially, it was believed that the helicopters would be evaluated (on and off the battlefield); during the parade, the Army claimed that the Z-10 was a key driver of its counterinsurgency (COIN) efforts. In fact, the Z-10 is a member of the Army’s Air Combat Group, specifically with the ‘Mustangs’ squadron. Integration with an active squadron and attendance at a major national event does not suggest a short-term service run. Yet despite this, it does not seem like the Army is going acquire additional Z-10s, at least in the short-term.
A number of purported reasons have been expressed as to why the Army has not sought to move forward with the acquisition of additional Z-10s. The most common one heard is in relation to the powerplant. At present, the Z-10 is powered by two WZ-9 turboshaft engines, each of which offers 1000 kW in output.
Turboshaft engines in the WZ-9’s range typically power attack helicopters in the realm of 3000 kg, such as the Eurocopter Tiger. Helicopters in the Z-10’s weight class, such as the AH-1Z Viper (5500 kg), typically use turboshaft engines with outputs in excess of 1300 kW. Given the Z-10’s empty weight of 5000 kg, the WZ-9 is an underpowered solution. This prevents Z-10 from achieving its maximum payload potential. For example, the Z-10 ought to be able to carry up to 16 guided air-to-ground missiles (such as the HJ-10), but it is limited to eight. The relatively low power-to-weight ratio may also be the cause to performance issues on the field as well, especially in active combat, which is what the Z-10 has apparently seen in Pakistan.
Fortunately, CAIC does have a new turboshaft engine in the pipeline – the WZ-16. The WZ-16 is being developed by Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), CAIC’s parent company, and Safran, an industry leading French aircraft propulsion developer and manufacturer. The WZ-16 is to have a take-off output power of at least 1240 kW, and continuous operation output of over 1100 kW. Although the WZ-16 is being developed for the Z-15 utility helicopter being developed by AVIC in partnership with Eurocopter, it is widely believed that the WZ-16 will make its way to the Z-10.
With the WZ-16 in mind, the Z-10 has considerable potential that will be of value to the Pakistan Army. The base parameters of a WZ-16-powered Z-10 would offer the Army an attack helicopter with the same payload capacity of the promising AH-1Z. But unlike the AH-1Z, the Army would have considerably more flexibility in equipping the Z-10 with the weapons, sensors and on-board electronics suites of its choice. In fact, a few of the subsystems found on the AH-1Z, such as the Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S), could potentially even be looked at for use on the Z-10. The point here is that the Army has the flexibility to customize the Z-10 to achieve its operational requirements in an optimal manner.
Given the potential capabilities on offer and the almost certain prospect of lower costs, the Z-10 (especially powered by the WZ-16) is a more than appropriate option for the Army. If Pakistan has a shot at building a quantitatively sizable attack helicopter fleet, that shot would rest with the Z-10. Such a fleet would equip the Pakistan Army with a potent and far-reaching close air support (CAS) force, one that could be freely used and flexibly equipped for different operational needs.
Pursuing the Z-10 could also open the doors to valuable support assets, such as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) and spare-parts manufacturing facilities. No Western option (such as the AH-1Z or T-129 ATAK) could offer that opportunity, not without prohibitive costs and/or political and regulatory hurdles.
64 Comments
by Abdul Rashid
Great article as usual, very informative. Apart from the powerplant have any other shortcommings been identified during trials by PA? Also, any details on the likely timeline for availability of the WZ-16?
by jigsaww
It’s the logical selection for Pakistan army. Power and technological issues will be resolved in due time. Give it another 3 to 5 years, and Z-10 will emerge as leading gunship.
by @bla bla
According to my knowledge and sources there are a number of other options too one of them is T 129 from Turkey
by saqrkh
No ETA on WZ-16.
It seems the engine was the central issue.
by saqrkh
That’s about right. The AH-1Z and Mi-35s can hold the fort down until the Z-10 is ready.
by saqrkh
Cost was the primary issue with the T-129 (though Turkey offered to literally give 3 for free in exchange for a commitment to buy). I think the PAA could try to get some of the T-129’s subsystems, e.g. avionics, HMD/S, sensors, munitions, etc, and use them on the Z-10.
by jigsaww
The
problem however with T-129 is that it is built under license from
AugustaWestland. This basically poses a big problem for Pakistan to
acquire it without being worried about spares and future. T-129 is NOT a
future proof helo and Pakistan has had bitter experiences with the
American F-16s acquired in the 80’s with stopped deliveries and spares.
Since T-129 uses a lot of American tech as well as is license built,
Pakistan has decided not to go ahead with its acquisition, at least for
now and this will remain unchanged unless TAI can come up with own
spares and parts or guarantees.
by MT
Do u realise that chinese won’t allow turkish subsystem on their helicopter.
What you say is only possible after 10yrs incase pak manage to buy 100heli and manage to convince china for a local overhaul capacity.
by MT
In 5yrs a new helicopter can be developed.
Z10 is boon for indian military.
LCH will treat it as its bunny. Moreover LCH cost india 10-12mill $ while inferior z10 with poor engine is around 20+mill $ as export price.
by jigsaww
You haven’t been able to develop a fighter jet in 40 years, a tank in 20 years, a country in 70 years, and you’re here talking of creating a gunship in 5 years. This is not lego boy. And while we wait for 3 more years for Z-10 to completely outclass or equate leading gunships, you should wait for LCH to start crashing because of poor indian manufacturing and overrated capabilities. I’m absolutely sure LCH is an overrated helo and is basically garbage (just like every other indian weapon, so called). Even by today’s standard Z-10 is way better than that garbage LCH. Oh and btw, it’s time you stop trolling Z-10 since i’d a licensed production, designed and developed by your benefactor aka baap russia. China did not design it. And it’s pretty much known russia creates the best helos out there.
by jigsaww
Pakistan can install ANY system on its JF-17, Z-10, or any other system bought from China. China’s nature of defence deals is based on pure based, not re-export or technological restrictions.
by MT
Jf17 was name shake joint venture. Pac Kamra only have license of 58% airframe slabs which come about 10% of total cost for aircraft.
Source: PAC home page.
Pakistan aeronautical industry is in crude stage. MOST of lgb and missile integration is done in china.
Raad missile is lying in close shelve after denel demanded more cash for jf17 project after having integrated raad on mirage as part of contract.
Z10 is no JV. Its a cheeni heli & u ll have to invest many million $ for future overhauling and integration facilities.
by saqrkh
That’s a sound opinion, but as of yet, it isn’t a fact. The Chinese did put the Z-10 on their export roster as well, and they haven’t reached a point where they’ll dissuade someone for swapping out a helicopter’s subsystems.
by saqrkh
China isn’t at the point where it’ll prevent any customer from swapping out a helicopter’s subsystems. The stuff it exports, it’s customizable.
by saqrkh
Different categories. The Z-10 is a medium-weight attack helicopter, the LCH is more in line with the Z-19 (borne from the Z-9 – a very mature utility helicopter). Pak reportedly tested that too.
by MT
Tejas in current capacity is better than junk fight 2 which has poor engine with miserable TWR. It lacks fadec, digital fly by wire, good radar. Can’t fire bvr missile range 》 50km.
India is doubling production of tejas.
Indian manufacturing capabilities have matured over last 5 years. Pakistan Kamra is like HAL of 1980 in terms of capabilities.Hal published 800 patent in 2015. Anyway they have outsourced most work to indian Pvt sector.
India had fewer /less than 33% crash of heli, fighter jet than russia in last 12months.
India have almost dumped Rafale. GOVT investing more on tejas while it’s very likely to have F18 manufacturing in India
Chinese defence media ranked LCH far potent and optimized platform than z10.
LcH is derived from dhruv. So all defects were already sorted in dhruv Mk4. LcH have produced 4 variants.
The fourth variant have performed nd beaten Russian heli in summer, winter trials.
japan has been interested in procuring few LCH.
INDIAN defence experts rate LCH as the most capable product coming from india in last 70 yra ; way better than k series missile which are categorised among few 5th gen SLBM missile having range of 5000km with weight of 17tons.
by jigsaww
Yeah what difference does it make? At least Pakistan has the guts to accept and publicly announce it as a JV instead of pumping fake ego and pride into the nation in name of some home grown indigenous jet that is 90% imported and still unable to be integrated even by indians. This also shows that PAF is a professional force whose focus is on results and not getting lost in idiotcities. It’s a successful project well on its of becoming a backbone of PAF with any eastern, local, or western system available for integration whereas the Tejas you implictly refer to is a junk that could not even get its laser targeting right in iron fist while taking all the time in the world to aim. Pathetic.
Keep your certificate to yourself. It’s funny to see such stupid comments coming from indians when the indian defence industry is itself nothing more than a spectacle of failure and tool of pumping fake pride into the nation. The catchphrase for DRDO should be “pumping fake pride in the nation for 50 years” or whatever. People who are losers are often seen criticizing and pulling legs of successful people, that is indian problem.
We’ll manage our integration, upgrade, and overhaul of Z-10 and Ra’ad. First bring out a credible system to open market that does not crash every few hours of flying and then talk of something.
by jigsaww
China will never have this kind of relationship with Pakistan, as long as pakistan’s and china’s interest remain converged, which for next 100 years at least look to be the case. It’s completely different nature of relationship between china and pakistan, something pakistan and china can mutually rely on for all situations to come.
by jigsaww
stupid comment as always without any idea of what you are honking.
by MT
Indian import bill for defence is 3.1 bill $ far far less in % as compared to pak import.
India have built matured R&D capacity in last 30yrs. There were hiccups, delay with many failure but with involvement of pvt sector, india ll close gap with developed countries.
THERE are 4-5companies making turbo fan engine in india..Hal tested it’s 1st home made 3 d printed 28Kn dry engine.
There is manik turbofan engine for Nirbhay undergoing flight testing. Twenty 80Kn wet thrust turbo fan being manufactured as preface to k10 90-96 Kn engine which are under development.
India have target to develop k10 engine by 2024 which ll replace GE414 for mk2 in future.
110Kn turbofan engine with 3d thrust vectoring is in advanced stage.
Drdo Indian missile programme faced similar deficiency. Agni, prithvi, nag, akash, astra, ngram-anti radiation missile.
As we speak 100 akash missile are being produced monthly. Indigenous trainer is undergoing multi loop tail test.
India is building all kinds of aesa radar. Aesa miniaturised radar for tejas mk2 ll have 1st prototype release in 2017-18.
PLAN is to have matured aesa radar over next 7-8yrs on incremental basis.
Anti radiation missile ll be inducted by 2018-19 with indian seekers.
India is working on 6-7kinds of seeker. Ku band seeker is ready, aesa ka band seeker is under development?sar band seeker undergoing testing while x band seeker are in final stage of development.
INDIAN new fab for seeker, e/o sensor is being built for 30nm resolution while current 180nm fab is used for missile and slv.
India spends 1% on gdp on R&D.
With billion $ of investments by india pvt sector giants, MNC and American companies combined by indian advanced capability in civil sector, narural science, civil nuke tech you can only see gap between india pak to widen.
Pakistani all products from babur, shaheen and raad are built abroad.
Pakistan r&d is so pathetic that it even imports/license produce long march rocket engine for shaheen
Missiles.
Babut and raad uses more than 90+% imported content.
by jigsaww
you know you wouldn’t need to write 1 foot long comments (every time, 20 times a day) if any of the things you mentioned actually worked.
We all know indian media is known to be fabricating a lot of stuff to create hysteria in an already hysterical nation…on ground nothing actually is working or inducted in any of these failure projects which is why india continues to import 90% of its weaponry including bullets and guns, whereas all of pakistani products and JVs are fully operational and deployed. Pakistan has a professional military and like i said, it focuses on results not creating fabricated pride.
by MT
Pak prouces 100 times less patents and 50 times less research than india
Pak is among bottom 10 countries wrt R&D while india is among top 70-80.
India imports 65% equipment so stop faking your own nos.
India with r&d investment going up from 0.8% in 2015 to 1.2% in 10yrs ll be importing less than 30% equipment
by Sami Shahid
AH-1z vipers are best….But WZ-10 should also be a part of Pakistan Army Aviation as the WZ-10 is also a modern gunship plus it is cheaper than AH-1z
by jigsaww
Keep mumbling.
by MT
Chinese ll dump pakistan in middle of street the time india china resolve their differences.
by MT
Pak ranked 132 out of 141 countries in research.
Can u guys make 2 stroke engine.
India may have dismal performance in manufacturing but pak dyabddt in league of nepal bhutan and Myanmar
by Ashi Sidhu
china already dumped Pakistan in 1971 when despite promising china didn’t intervene in the war
by jigsaww
and i think you were the Chinese president at that time right? you know it all.
by jigsaww
i guess you know a lot about getting dumped in the middle of the street. enlighten us.
by Deal Concordia
The rise of the Chinese military-industrial complex has been a boon for Pakistan. The Pakistani/Chinese leadership should look into integrating at least a couple of thousand Pakistani engineering students into their industrial apparatus every year so that there can be some generalized technological cross-over as well.
by Mustafa O
What confusion do u have about indian technology. Chinese are making 5th gen fighters. Have induans even produced half of that capability. I mean look where is the tweety bird despite 33 years of development process. And who buys INDIAN military hardware, not even indian military. I would rather suggest u keep shut about being an indian adovate and rather contribute positively. There is no place for jokes here… Even pakistan exports more than 250m$ worrh of military equipment. Pathetic
by Mustafa O
your a goofy who wants to be drilled down the hole…. Raad uses babur engine. Which in turn was re engineered following tomahawk crashes in 98 in Baluchistan province. Raad design doesn’t match any of the denel products displayed so far. Wonder from where did u digup this Denel connection. Typical Indian…. Mar jaweeen magar manee na. FYI, Raad integration is well under way by improving upon structure of inner pylons and wings of JF. Aawwwww, dont cry. Its envitable that JF will be used to reign in Raad on Ur defenceless airfields and C2 centres.
by Mustafa O
How much of this shitty indian arms making in roads… Not even a spec… Keep ur cut and pasted shitty products to ur self….. Worlds largest begger of arms… I mean importer.. So much of indegenous products
by Mustafa O
R&D in Civil sector, yes. In defence ur stats speak of itsself. U xannor even copy and lroduce the same product. Tejas engineering is so pathetic that u cannot cannibilize one aircraft panels on others. This is ur state of the art production facility… Scum
by Mustafa O
Well what u shine is whinning like wh… es. U had to beg, threat and gkd knkws offer what elae to srilankans to cancel JF deal. Well, thats off for the timw being. Soon there will be 3 buyers of JF. guess what, srilanka is still on board. O ce u will stop crying, they will announce the deal. Yes, pak exlorts arms to srilanka, myanmar, indonesia, saudia, oman, egylt, romania, turkey, nigeria, Zimbabwe etc. Who buys ur shitty stuff, maybe people from maharashtra… Pathetic
by Mustafa O
Hazaar kwahishein aiseen keh har khwahish peh dam nikle…
by MT
Pak don’t even make aluminum alloy of aircraft so knocked kit assembly of jf17 is what pak does.
India at least make tejas from 60% local parts. Pak can at max assemble 58 % of fuselage whIch makes total share of pac kamrab in aircraft as less than 10%
by MT
Jf is mig33 designed by russia manufacturered by china for pak
Pak don’t make 10% of jf in pak .
Anyway what an achievement
by MT
Ha ha.
Name me the company in pak which makes those engine.
Babur is chinese built nd manufactured. You guys supplied tomahawk to cheen & they gave u cheap babur with jigs, lathe and sub systems.
Count 1 sub systems of babur which is made in pak
Even fuselage is made from imported aerospace grade alloy
Pak cant make moped engine..
Even trivial Turbofan engine of thrust 5kn for babur ll require 4-5 decades r&d.
by MT
Pak cant make tyre in house so all those cheeni maal u export have 90% cheeni component
by MT
Great chinese copied Jf17 from Mig33- J10/11 came from Lavi of Israel
=>in 1998 China purchased the design and test data of Mig33 from Russia to aid in expediting the development of the Chengdu JF-17/FC-1
=>The J-10 resembles the IAI Lavi[12] and is reported to be developed from the US F-16 with assistance from Israeli engineers
by Mustafa O
I think u were born yesterday ot still suckling on milk while defunct mig 33 image came out. Its dual engine u moron. Design no where matches that of JF. similarly, while lavi may have an influence, it was a much uglier and a smaler aircraft with an engine of f4 phantom, the j 79. No where closer to the big engine of 27000 lbs that is in J10. U cant stop spewing bull crap on this respectable forum.
by Mustafa O
Modi toady, why cant u give ur answer once. Are u retard or it takes time surfing the exclusive raw / indian web for cow crap for stupid logics
by Mustafa O
Aluminuim alloy. Yeah right. So thats what ur making tweety bird with…. That must be a world record flying an aluminium aircraft
by Mustafa O
There goes ur fart from mouth. Reality bites right. Go on try to copy and fly ur failed cruise missile. Our NESCOM and AWC are already on their way to give more stealtheir designs. Ur satlleties will detect with what sensors. U have staellites for taking images , not detecting a cruise missile with less than . 5 m2 rcs objects. U dont have a radar on board any of the satellites. So how u will detect it with ur satellites. Yeah maybe a modi toady will be using binoculors on satellites to locate them.
So dont get scared by this revelation of raad and babur capabilities.
FYI, in 1971 wars, cheeni F6 armed with amerixan aim9b sidewinders, destroyed 2 intruding IAF fighters. And su 7 near sakesar hill on 7 of december and a mig 21 on 11 december. So yes, cheeni system work perfectly with requisite integration having bagged juicy indian kills. So, keep ur INDIAN shitty tech to ur self, cause unlike pakistan which sells its weapons to about a dozen countries, Indians dont even make across border to countries like bhutan.
by MT
Long range tracking radar can detect & track 10 small ping pong ball from 1000km away with rcs as small as 0.1-0.2 meter square.
NESCOM IMPORTS and integrates chinese component of babur and shaheen which comprises of 90+% total part
Nescom can’t wind tunnel a flying quadropter on its own
We know their capabilities. They can’t make INS, radar, seekers, tercom, dsmac, flight control.
Madrassa boy; India ia adding IR sensor to integrated space cell which ll help track all your air space.
From 2017: isro ll launch 12 slv whose no ll go up to 16 from 2018.
India ll finish integration of local gps: IRNSS in may 2016
India navy, airforce already have dedicated satellite’s so next big work for isro is to ramp up infra red tracking relay of satellite’s.
1satellite has swath area of 64-128km sq. So all india needs is to place them over Arabia sea, sindh & punjab borders.
Pak sells cheeni weapons as ur madrassa r&d capabilities can only produce islamist zombies
by Mustafa O
Wrll modi toady, ur whining and ranting mrans nothing on this site. Yoyr comments are as anive as you are about how PAF had always enjoy edge on your poorly professional airforce over the uears. How IAF abysmal perfoemance over wars in 65, 71 has actually caused concern on aircraft manufacturers for being the worst of marketing managers, desyroying the future of the weapon systems due their poor performance during war. Just like arab airfkrces, whose performance actually forced russians to reconsider selling arms to them, cause tjey were bringing bad name to it. How hunters , gnats and meteors and mig 21s were taken off the skt, its been amazing.
Now coming down to NESCOM AND AWC. Only those know who work there about the capavilities of these elite R&D centres of excellence which are ECM chambers, radar absorbenr cahmbers, hypersonic wind tunnels and ofcourse multiple avionics labs. Ur INDIAN mind cannot fathom the fact that there are even more centres of excellence whose job day and night to lroduce weapons to make indian defence planners piss in their pants.
Of course RAAD, BABUR AND HAFR are the weapons to frustrate indian yet another defunct and flawed cold start strategy. Now ur aerostat radar can pick ul targets of 3m2, u RSS grad cannot understand to detect target that generates . 5m2 of rcs, ur green line and aerostats are lying pieces of shit. U can launch many INDIAN staelllites, cause we know if they are INDIAN, one xan relax. Ur ir sensors or what ever sbit u have on these so xalled satellites will still be good for providing recce and surveillance over targets.
Its good to read in ur comments, this WILL happen, that WILL happen and everything WILL happen. Even going as far as 2050 where india will do everything while Pakistani will be stuck in past. For u modi toady, its enough consolation for a pakistani tjat if we can frusyraye every foxy evil design while staying 1p syeps ahead, ur plans of 2050 will still find Pakistani s ahwad of you. So boom, suck on this reality.
And now raad is cheeni african, wow what a crossover tech. So ur father working as janitor told u that again. Another bedtime story. Does he tead all rhese bed time stories so u can put up on this site.
Listen, the world military magazines, janes , military technology, airfprces monthly etc etc all talk so low avout indian defence products. I wonder , if our small arms, anti tank guided missles, bomb fuzes, 5pp, 1000 and 2000 bombs, shells, assault rifles, laser ranging, nvgs, etc etc are so cheeni, wonde why cpuntries like romania, bulgaria, finland, malaysia, indonesia, saudi arabia, uae, kuwait, oman, qatar, turkey, jordan, nigeria, bangladesh, myanmar, Zimbabwe, morocco buy it from us, bagging $300M of export orders, why they dont biy it from cheen. And what a n abysmal state of affairs for indian defence industry, that not even bhutan buys anything from u. So suck up ur JNDIAN products and jerk off till u get tired of ur own s.. t……. sc. m
by MT
Aerospace aluminum is used in every aircraft. Tejas uses 50-60% composite of total fuselage .
Bakistani can only mention radar, hypersonic tunnel facilities, avionics on discuss forum whilel NESCOM and NED can’t make a 2km range finder.They were formed to integrate chinese m11/m18 shaheen missile after suparco failed its missile program.
So gr8 are their r&d capabilities of Nescom that it continue to import long march 1 rocket engine of 1.4 mete diameter for shaheen 2/3 from chinese company
Jane have quoted raad being made by denel while pak source cheeni component to keep them feasible which make them cheeni african
I have asked bakis to name 1 component of raad and babur which are made in pak
U lied about turbofan engine & turbojet which ur inbred engg can dream in next 40yrs. Even your most superior sunnier turks can dream on for next decade.
Radar altimeter, inertial navigation, flight control hw, software, engine actuators are all cheeni
GO and take some lesson on radar. Raad and babur have such large rcs that any damn coastal and ground radar can locate them
Indian satellite ll build live tracking capabilities over next 5yrs as we are done with the gps.
Large sar payload & IR sendors ll scan through entire pak
I asked you to name one paki indigenous def equipment exported by baki.all I see is cheeni maal repackaged with sunni name such as bakhtar shikan (Hj8 in china), mushak (saab safari)
Jane & Stockholm defence research SIPRI ve cited much higher indian exports in defence than pakistan.
by Mustafa O
So i am getting to the point of pissing off a modi roady from rapistan. Your logics are getting as naive asyour responses. As i said b4, babur is re engineered tomkhawk cruise missile and raad uses the same engine. Now its really difficult to comprehend for a modi toady to believe that an american tech has been reversed engineered. Now whether it uses chinese components to make the same engine or not , does ot make a differwnce as far as it is perfextly and precisely engaging its targets WITH STEALTH. you should try devising a strategy beyond cold start because it has now has been frozen to the frustration of all indian strategists by the same cheeni weapons. 2nd, the iphones, samsungs, ur pathetic tv, laser pointer, ur appliances etc etc ate all cheeni. So unless u develop something more indian that is worth taking over chinese superiority in these products, i suggest keep ur trap shut. And pleae dont say that Indians dont use su h appliances as even americans are using it. 3rd, u need to get out of your father bedtime story fantasy world, as i said stop taking notes from a janitor working in any of these facilities. AWC, khan labs, PEC are way too advanced for a scum fom DRDO to comprehend.
No one is fool enough to divulge into sensitive info for a raw sleuth like u. CAN U TELL WHAT INDIAN RLG, INS AND RADARS ARE BEING USED ON AGNI, PRITHVI OR NIRBHAY or whatever shit ur producing. Try to use ur scum brain and tell ur bosses, that raad and babur are here to blow ur brains out during any conflict.
And being a shitty sleuth, u need to take classes about radar ur self. Comparing raad with composite material having stealthy features to that of su 30 mki rcs, i mean u really need some serious research. Damn coastal radar could not detect those heroes of bombay mayhem, who allegedly travaled all the way to bombay harbour, and u think ur shitty radars will detect raad. Hahahaha,….. really funny. And u call urself a military entbusiast. I mean its ok to underestimate ur enemy, but to all together disregard the prcess of detection, it’s making a fool of urself, which u are doing immaculately.
Also need some data on what and to whom indians have sold its defence equipment. Then we will c what janes has to say.
So modi toady, as you c, ur obsession with cheen is taking a heavy toll on ur rationale thinking. Better accept cheeni and pakis superority. As i said,
by MT
Babur and raad both uses cheeni turbofan/jet.
I repeat pak doesn’t have capacity or r&d team in turbofan development.
If rev engg of engine was so easy then cheen won’t be usingloq quality RD93 for their junk fighter17
Google all pak forums. They ll tell u pak capabilities in engine engineering Rest everything u said is crap.
by MT
Khan lab were pioneering in nuke smuggling.
Pak atomic corporation can’t make an indigenous nuke reactor which india have been designing, manufacturing for 3decades.
All of your khushab plutonium reactors and other military reactors are sourced from china.
India coastal radar did catch LeT boat which belonged to an indian fishermen whose boat was abducted & used by pak terrorist.
Indian r&d is transparent . nirbhay programme was incremental tech up scaling from drdo lakshya, followed by drdo Panchi, rustom
Flight compute,control system; sw evolved from lakshya while RLG-INS comes from agni missile programme.
Nal made the engine while actuators were built by drdo with IP of ISRO which all helped drdo make tejas actuators and engine starters.
India is using russian turbofan engine in nirbhay until indian flight computer and other software are finetuned. You don’t use new untested engine on a new drone.
Production version ll only use indian manik turbofan engine.
NIRBHAY ll cost somewhere between 500000-1000000 cheaper than any cruise missile in range of 1000km
Manik engine is powered by 5kn dry thrust with no afterburner.
One of nirbhay test scheduled this year ll include active homing seeeker the one usd by drdo in aad, pad BMD & ngram anti radiation missile.
Nirbhay have faced a lot of unexpected as it was first CM built in india. Drdo introduced an advanced thrust vectoring for solid boosters.
How many SLBM use supercaviration tech in boosters to reduce air friction & eject out of water as K-4 do.
Everything done by drdo is published in scientific journals.
I understand that pak had never made a product from scratch. With pak feeble capacity in missile r&d only a fool can believe indigenous dev of babur and raad while india was only researching on CM development
by Mustafa O
Liten modi toady, i kbiw u have burned your mid night oil surfing thru internet ti get me sonething solid on info related to my question above. I ask again that CAN U TELL US Pakistanis WHAT INDIAN RLG, INS AND RADARS ARE BEING USED ON AGNI, PRITHVI OR NIRBHAY or whatever shit ur producing. 2nd, from what is the turbo fan engine used in nirbhay. And dum head, of course these engines are without after burners, u dont have a pilot sitting to engage and disengage after burners. Plus its a trade off between range and speed. Its a copied version of Russian kh series of cruise missiles.
And its funny that u keep on pasting bed time stories. Your assertion on khushab nuclear plants are really funny considering they were builg in broad day light under constant surveillance from spies satellites.
Burraq us cheeni, but no matter how much u jerkoff everyday, babur is a result of Superior american tech. So better suck it up. The fact doesnot change with ur denial. And pride of nation remains Raad, which will soon be the primary standoff weapon of choice for PAF against indian yargets. And oh boy, will it be a treat to c indian billions of toy shopping going down the drain.
What u can bank on is maybe, russian provided Brahmos. Thats ur best bet. Sorry, but indian defence products suck. Reason why Bulgaria, finland, malaysia, indonesia, burma, KSA, oman, qatar, egypt, srilanka, turkey, libya etc buy small arms, bomb fuzes, LRF, shells, bombs, mushak aircraft, M1A3 APCs from Pakistan. Whom does india sell and what? Yup kama sutra dvds i guess.
by MT
U export cheeni assembled def goods to many countries.i have asked you many times to name 1 pakistani product.
Pak don’t have capacity to rev engg. Tomahawk were sent to china which mixed Ukraine kh55 &tomahawk for their cm development.
In return pak got cheaper version of CM. But pak continue to umoort 90 % babur components.
I told u that pak can’t develop a turbofan engine in next2 decades.
by Mustafa O
Better to have a junk fighter that can deliver a final vliw than to have a defunct 33 years old teeny meeny tweety bird of the size of a gnat that is still undr development.
by Mustafa O
Yup detect raad with ur same binoculars with which u missed the bombay rockers of 2008 all along ur coastlune. 30 min warning capabilities will kot be achieved by even 2050. Untill then, raad will be of a different dimension.
I am still waiting for the specs of Indian engine in russian provided nirbhay, inas used in agni and prithvi, indian aesa or pesa in any fighter. Still nothing. What drdo doing, busy producing low quality products. And to whom india is exportung and what, i am still waiting.
I suggest you shut your p.. e h. l. for the time being.
by MT
google manik turbofan engine spec. by the way 3-4indian psu have built 4-5 turbofan engine over last 1 decade.
recent launch of Hal made PTFE-25 with 3d d printed components in bangalore. Google again.
Google Ring laser gyroscopes for Agni in Drdo yearly brochure.
india uses local RLG-INS for akash, agni & prithvi.
by MT
1. Hailed as a landmark event for the aerospace industry and the Make in India movement, the Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine (HTFE-25) maiden run promises a bright era for India’s home-grown aeronautical projects. HAL says the engine can be used for basic, intermediate and advanced trainer aircraft. “The engine can also be used on business jets and five tone class aircraft in single engine configuration and on aircraft of up to nine tonne class in the twin engine configuration,” says an HAL official
2 .An expendable 450 Kgf thrust class Gas Turbine engine ‘Manik’ was developed for 1000 km class subsonic cruise missile [Nirbhay] and is undergoing endurance test : 2015 jan
3. Ring laser gyroscope (RLG) based INS used in our long range missiles gives sufficient accuracy for credible strategic deterrence on its own under any circumstances.
Fig 1: Ring Laser Gyroscope based INS + satellite receiver
SauravJha: Talking about tactical systems, what kind of optical gyroscopes are they using at the moment?
Satheesh Reddy: Fibre Optic Gyroscopes (FOG) mostly. Akash uses a FOG for example. In fact FOG technology is quite mature and FOGs arebeing produced in numbers. 200 FOGs for instance were recently delivered for the Akash program. FOGs are also being used for Tanks. We have FOGs of bias drift less than 0.01 degree per hourat the prototype stage currently. These are meant for ship based applications.
SauravJha: And what would you say about the state of RLG technology at RCI?
Satheesh Reddy: Well, it’s ‘state of the art’. World standard navigation grade RLGs are quite mature here.
Fig 2: New MEMS based INS with satellite receiver
SauravJha: Where are these RLGs built?
Satheesh Reddy: They are built in and around the RCI campus.
source : cnn ibn interview 2014
by middleway1
After this analysis, what do you think of the recent announcement of the order for 9 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters by Pakistan?
by Mustafa O
Thanx to the foreign manufacturing of some of these components that gave indian disgraceful so called r&d org such as drdo that gave it a chance to reverse engineer israeli, russian, European systems and produce something with an indian name, albiet of lesser quality. All infian defence articles do not have a unque tech thereby they are copy of foteign technology
by MT
india have been working on all kinds of tech for 40@50 yrs
such is level of indigenous capabilities in RLG INS that they are fabricated in india with 180nm fab mould while FOG ins is fabricated in an asian ally country with indian Ip
no country ll share their top niche tch with one of biggest arms importers
its your fault if you have almost nill research & all u do is integration of cheeni made system at Nescom and Ned.
India have invested more than 1bill $ in turbofan development & we have achieved very little but this is how turbofan research move forward.
by Mustafa O
Within the given limited resources pak military def org has made Pakistan proyd of saving millions of dollars. Its a matter of pride given our resources, military is producing weapons, cheeni, amreeki, or afreekee that can strike with stealth, precision and destruction. Proud of all products that have been acknkwledged by foriegn sources of superoir capability to indian defence products.
by MT
any country being cheeni ally against common thereat ll avail of all those subsided military eqpmnt.
But u guys have habit of importing babur raaad shaheen and claimimg indigenous.
But pak virtually published no high quality research in missile which we can even see in Indonesia a country having no missiles.
all your short range to MRBM IS GIFT from china with violation MTCR.
india is among top 5 countries with citation index, no of papers published.
india spends more on space programme thantotal r&d expenditure of entire pak gdp.
l understand that cheen & usa uses india to weaken india
pak received 35 bill $ civilian & military doles from usa which are diverted to reduce military parity with india.
pak has a price. its like a girl which needs constant attention from rich men : cheen and usa .
no other countries with economic Size of pak scale surviving on usa, uk doles with imf loan dependence ; jums above its limit
by Mustafa O
If Pakistan is a girl then can u deny the fact that india now adays is acting as a bitch with her legs wide open begging to the entire world to shove in whatever resources they have in the name of make in india. Defence news, Janes defence, wall street journal etc etc have dubbed this effort to be a failure, because of infrastructiral inadequacies and corruption and ofourse being low tech to the concept of absorbing such axvanced tech. Comeout of ur cocoon, hindus and indians are nothing without ur billion plus population, half of it poor, that gives some semblance of attraction to these bone snatchers which u call foreign investors.maybe to build more toilets. India today is synonym with rape, corruption, poorty, over population, poor living style index etc. Google it, lest u get a RAW controlled indian google in india.
As ur filthy skin is dark and thick like a swine, so i dont expect u to accept on this forum to accept pak weapons superiority. Raad, Babur, nasr are paki enough to rid u indians or ur breedless generation.
As of pakistani products, whether we use 25% or 100% of inxigenous products in them, the fact is that more than a dizen coungries of asia, africa, middleeast and europe buy these things from us. Proof of pak products quality, more rhan what inxians sell, i guess to bhutan. So suck up on ur INDIAN products and then jerk it off believing ur products are of world class quality….. Indian
by Mustafa O
U can invest 100billion on r&d. The fact off matter is, hindus dont have a martial mindset, hence u cannot produce any worthwhile def article