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HAL will source 70% of Tejas production work to Indian private sector
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will outsource approximately 70% of the Tejas multi-role fighter’s production work to the Indian private sector, the Times of India reports.
The move is being taken to accelerate the output of Tejas fighters. HAL currently produces eight aircraft annually, though it is intending to increase its output to 16 by 2019.
“With increased level of outsourcing and capacity within HAL, we will be able to speed up the deliveries to cater to the present and future requirements of our customers,” said a HAL official.
In a statement to the Times of India, a senior official of the Tejas program said, “Major sub-assemblies such as front fuselage, centre fuselage, rear fuselage, wings et al, have been outsourced to private industry. The orders have been placed and they need about an year to supply these.”
In turn, 85 private companies will be supporting the Tejas supply chain, with the leading firms being Dynamic Technologies Ltd. for the front fuselage; VEM Technologies for the centre fuselage; Alpha Tocol for the rear fuselage; Larsen and Toubro for the wings; and National Aerospace Laboratory and Tata Advanced Materials Limited for the tail fin and rudder.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) assigned its Tejas aircraft to No. 45 squadron Flying Daggers in 2016, which is currently five fighters, which it hopes to grow to 11 by March 2018.
Notes & Comments:
The outsourcing policy will enable HAL to benefit from the efficiencies of the Indian private sector, which has grown (in part) as a result of subassemblies manufacturing for overseas aviation vendors, among them Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Like the Tejas, the serial production of HAL’s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) will also transition to private sector outsourcing. Coupled with forthcoming acquisitions made under the Strategic Partnership policy, such as the purchase of more than 230 naval helicopters, the Indian private sector is both slotted for growth and to form an integral piece of India’s defence sourcing.
89 Comments
by Joseph
This all sounds good in theory but maybe it could also make it more likely for inferior or substandard parts being supplied. Like what happened to Dhanush howitzer recently: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/cbi-fir-against-firm-that-passed-off-chinese-parts-as-german-for-artillery-guns-4761830/
by Bilal Khan
Even if that is to occur, it’d simply be growing pains for the inevitable, a booming privately advanced manufacturing sector. From India’s standpoint, I would be interested in seeing how this outsourcing affects HAL and the other DPSUs (i.e. state owned defence enterprises). Will they downsize by shedding those involved in manufacturing? Will the Indian state recede its ownership of them? etc…
by Omar Dar
If India stops treating defence projects like commercial assets and starts working on their armament procurement like how a military project should be handled, their armed forces would not be in such a mess.
Taking the example of Tejas, if they had followed how the JF-17 was handled and inducted the Tejas in a timely manner, they would’ve maintained their force levels, gained operational experience, developed support infrastructure, saved enormous amounts of cash and gained production experience
Luckily for us, that is not going to ever happen.
by Jai Khare
Jf17 is different case ,u don’t have to struggle to dedelope different-different technologies from scratch , whatever you need ,you just import from china.jf17 design was already designed by russia which china modified for their own fighter later they give you so don’t have to face extreme test phase which our tejas have to face.you also dont have to face pause on program like we had to due to nuclear tests but ur program keep going on thanks to china.You deveped fighter based on convetional technologies which already exists & test proven but we develop new technologies which rarely exist like delta wing,composite material,digital fly by wire system and also engine.although haven’t complete yet but we waste lots of time on jet engine by pauasing tejas program.But u don’t have to this.But our engine is now 90% ready & will be in flying condition by 2019.Tejas is partially stealthy with 0.5 rcs due to composite materials , delta wing ,smaller size & Y shaped small size exauhst nozzle
by RAVINATHAN R
Though it is late ,very much required private participants with no compromise in quality. Side by side use them in finalising Jejas-2. All the best HAL.
by SS_IND
The Govt has clearly stated its policy to increase production, irrespective if HAL likes the pvt companies or not. The pvt companies are more efficient and even though lack experience would gain valuable knowledge and become part of a future Aero-Space industry. This would finally increase the rate of fighter production from current 6-8 to the planned 16 per year.
HAL cannot continue to do everything on its own. Very soon other Projects like LCH, LUH and Medium role helicopters would be part of the pvt. supply chain. HAL already has multiple projects in the pipeline (UAVs, AMCA, FGFA etc) which requires more attention.
by MzUnGu
What’s the point? That plane is outdated even if it go into production now.
With HAL having the sole monopoly on the aerospace sector in India, it’s airplanes will always be fill with corruption, and will always be 10 years behind… Divide it up into 2 or 3 smaller company, then maybe it’ll have a chance ..
by Venu Gopal
Are you an authority on modern airborne warfare to make such ” qualified ” statements about the aircraft in use ? If so why are you not working in the defense ministry at a high power level or be an advisor to p.m ? If you aren’t one , try being one to other countries, like, u.k, Israel, or even to paradise islands, to start ?
by Jack More
If Tejas is outdated then Pakistan has wasted 100 jets.I hope you understand.
by Venu Gopal
The main reason for outsourcing is, for increasing the production and deliveries within the time frame as required by the customer. As , increasing the numbers would immediately call for expansion of the existing manufacturing facilities which will take time ( construction time for new manufacturing shop, for a start ) and the associated machinery and processes ( from ordering to installation and commissioning ) and so many other factors.
by amar
I sometimes wonder, how naive average pakistanis are– especially with respect to what it really takes to design an entire jet, each subsystems and integrating them together into a working product. In terms of design and development, Pakistan’s contribution to JF-17 is perhaps as much as India’s in su-30 and PAKFA–or who knows even lesser, given the current industrial maturity of Pakistan.
For Pakistan Jf-17 was something that they could easily manufacture in their country away from all the strings that comes attached with F-16. It is although a different matter that now, they are going in for systematic updates to the JF-17 blk1. It would also become quickly evident that most of the “updates” or “upgrades” are actually “done” in China! For instance, development of twin seater version, first testing and trials of BVR way back in 2010-12, I guess(Please feel free to correct me in case I got any figures wrong!). These updates are then passed onto PAC for serial production.
For LCA, there is no doubt, it took an aweful lot of time for Indian developers to come up with a working 4.5gen jet. But the primary objective of both the nations and air forces(with respect of LCA and JF-17 programs) remain as different as chalk is from cheese!
For India it was a project that was to stimulate an entire ecosystem of aerospace industry that could support an indigenous venture in various capacities. A lot of labs and academic institutions took part in the design and development of this fighter jet and contributed in various capacities. For Pakistan, though, Jf-17 as already mentioned was a plane that was sanction free and something they could easily upgrade(although for each update they would need significant chinese assistance!). So local R&D was placed on back burner–kindly note local R&D is a time consuming painstaking process that needs decades to evolve. This is also the reason why one can easily see the contribution of Pakistan based labs or companies in the original design of JF-17 is almost non existent. That is a harsh truth, whether my Pakistani friends want to acknowledge it or not is entirely inconsequential!
by Abdullah Aman
yah you Indian are so smart who help to designs tejas isn’t that France Dassault-Breguet Aviation as consultants or may be you forgot about your harsh truth
by Joseph
If it is commercially sensible HAL could invest in new manufacturing plants as well. So no, that is unlikely the real reason. I think it is either to do with private companies are likely more efficient or it is about Indian government wants to encourage more private investment or innovation in defense industry.
by Milind Naik
Tejas won’t be outdated technology if produced in bulk. Its much better aircraft then JF17.
During second world war Stalin used to say Quantity always has its own Quality.
by Milind Naik
Now GoI has to put its foot down and ask HAL to produce Tejas in bulk. India supposed to have @500 Tejas in next five years. Tejas is not at all inferior aircraft. No one care for quality if you have quantity. Have lesson from Russians.
Stalin defeated much more technically advanced German forces only by shear numbers and courage.
Once Stalin said ‘Quantity always have its on Qualities.’
Don’t forget Tejas is 4+ generation fighter aircraft. Its technically equivalent to SU30 and may be superior to F16 in stealth & fly by wire technology.
by Sami Shahid
Dude, we are producing almost 70% of the Air craft indigenously. As for Tejas then India has been taking assistance from France for the Tejas project. India wants to develop a stealth air craft with Russia and if not then it will buy some stealth air craft from US or any other European country. As for Pakistan, PAC has repaired 3 Saab Erieye Air Crafts and plans to develop its own stealth aircraft.
by Sami Shahid
They should not outsource it because it will become more costly & production of spare parts might not complete on time as they won’t be having any idea how much air crafts India wants to buy because their navy has already rejected Tejas while the Air Force is looking for single engine air crafts from foreign manufacturers.
by little children
good one
by Stan
COULD YOU PLS READ YOUR OWN STATEMENT AND I QUOTE WE DEVELOP new technologies like delta wing,composite materials,digital fly by wire system and also engine,GET REAL 😃LET ME QUOTE BEATLES “I’LL GET BY WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM MY FRIENDS “GOOD LUCK IN THE DREAM WORLD
by Manju
A simple request to Pakistani readers, please don’t view Tejas and JF17 in the same perspective.Tejas is an idegenous project(Of course with imported subsystems and R&D underway to replace them all).On the other hand JF17 is a joint venture with a partner(who already has experience in building it’s own jets). JV criticality comes into picture during and after sales,without the agreement of both partners sale is void and it applies even by limitations in procurement of spares.So look at both of them differently as the production, manufacturing and purpose of both planes is completely different.Its a welcome move by HAL but the biggest challenge would be quality control.
by Omar Munir
seems like they want to continue feeding the modi’s ego and will continue to serve as an effective political stunt more than anything. They failed to develop what they initially were going for after more than 3 decades, so now that they have that decades old objective in the air they have to modernize while trying to make it operational. I suppose it’s best to just keep going at this point having spent so much time and money on it. Either way modi will hype it to the fullest to keep the image of himself he wants to create.
by .Hugo.
can you please show the actual proof that the tejas has 0.5 rcs?
by TZK
Bottom line neither India nor Pakistan can make a modern fighter jet that is 100% indigenous. There are only a handful of countries that can do so and there is no shame in that. If one is to believe politicians they would have us believe that they invented space ships and advanced surgical techniques.
by Haroon Javed Qureshi
Actually quite well opinion ed
by MzUnGu
The way India/HAL works, I would not be surprised if Pakistan field the J-31 before these Tejas get fielded. 😀
by MT
Nope. U got it fully wrong . Unlike Pak India has ecosystem of aeronautics industry which are capable to produce quality subsystem at faster pace
by MT
55% of frames only
by Aviral Singh
If that is the case then you should know that we have already inducted Tejas Mk1. 6 Newly manufactured aircrafts will fly in next 5 months in addition to the 5 series produced aircraft already flying.As far as J31 is concerned, your economy is not doing well as of now and any sane mind in PAF will first try to purchase more JF 17 which are cheap easily available. Also PAF has never operated maintenance intensive two engine fighter jets.
If you feel that the aircraft is outdated then you are completely wrong. Its avionics are still state of the art.The aircraft has full body health monitoring systems and some intelligent software embedded to prevent any mishaps In case the pilot makes any mistake. This is the reason why there was not even a minor incident in last 16 years. In next few Month Tejas LSP2 will be flying with india developed Uttam AESA radar.
by Aviral Singh
Tejas manufacturing facility. Watch from 6:21
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CCqjjw8oyGI
by Aviral Singh
A very old but the most informative documentary on LCA tejas I have ever seen:
PART I:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=755G4aqQ9mk
PART II:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jPh930A1FA&itct=CBYQpDAYACITCLDr5L2sq9cCFYg9aAodlCsAfDIHYXV0b25hdkjp7MPUmtyRz-8B
by amar
Hi Haroon, I merely stated some facts, it is unfortunate that other readers simply cant grasp the complexities involved in “designing” a jet from scratch and get it certified for air worthiness. JF-17 no doubt has emerged as a great plane over the years, it is cheap, nimble, easy to produce and can be integrated with a lot of chinese weaponary, however it was not a project that could have stimulated local Pakistani R&D in aerospace engineering, because to be honest, Pakistan was never in a position to seriously contribute anything to the project apart from perhaps the valuable inputs of those PAF pilots who were deputed to China during the initial phases of the development of this jet. LCA on the other hand was meant to be project that was to stimulate local R&D, and that was perhaps one of the reason for itz painful delays. Also the product that emerged out of ADA in 2001 was a designers plane and not a pilot’s plane. And it took painful 15 years from that instance to get the plane certified and to make it “combat worthy” with full assortment of weapons etc. There is also no doubt that India initially took french consultancy during the initial days of development, however there are terms and conditions that usually come with these consultancies. French assistance in those days was limited to general design and layout. ADA had to do a lot of tweakings to the design for instance cropped double delta to improve the flow separation and improve high AoA performance etc. Kindly note those aerodynamic studies were conducted at wind tunnel facilities at IISc and NAL bangalore. The main problem with LCA program were two fold-
1) They tried to do everything in house– from engine to radar to composites to flight controls.
2) Lack of accountability.
Now, they indeed got some degree of success in #1, for instance India could successfully design composites and flight control system and mature it to the extent that it could be used in plane, other avenues werent that successful for instance engine. Radar is something that is very close to being mature. Now , what does that tell us? It tells us, that over the years, India has gathered a lot of experience in “design” of various sub-systems– some sub systems have matured, other havent yet–but they will in near to mid term future. #2 is something that to a great extent eludes most of the Indian R&D programs.
by Omar Dar
Errr.. Is India producing the jet engine? No. Is India producing the radar? No. Is India even producing the radome? No. The local content of the Tejas is not much higher than the JF-17.
by Jack More
India is producing HMDs,India is producing mission Computer,India produces obogs,India produces All composites and material used in it,India produces AFCS,Out of a total of 35 major avionics components and line-replaceable units (LRUs), only three involve foreign systems.
Indigenous content of Tejas 59.7% by value & 75.5% by numbers.But wait what i heard was that Pakistan makes 55% airframe “Indigenously”.I never knew it’s greater than Tejas.Thanks for info.
by amar
@omardar:disqus
Yes India is indeed producing engines, however those engines are not the intellectual property of India – ex AL-31 and RD-33 to name a few. What you fail to realize is the fact that India has designed various small to medium aero engines–which are intellectual property of India. It is just a matter of time before Kaveri is matured to the extent wherein it can be integrated with LCA.
For the radar, you have no clue about the R&D activities of LRDE, have you? Kindly read a bit more. thanks!
by Aviral Singh
I can name dozens of Subsystems and avionics which have been developed in indian and you won’t be able to name any pakistani avionics used on JF17. Can you?
Digital fly by wire, Head Up Display,CLAW, Jet engine starter Unit (GTSU), Digital flight control computer, Auxiliary mounted gearbox,Identification Friend of Foe (IFF), On board Oxygen Generation system,Kaveri Digital Engine Control Unit ( KADECU), Radar Warning Receiver, etc are some of the indian systems on board LCA tejas. If you talk of avionics 27 out of 31 used are indian developed. You will not be able to talk about foreign radar anymore as our indegenious Uttam AESA radar will be flying on-board Tejas LSP2 in next few months. According to flight tracker on ADA website LSP2 is currently grounded which is a proof that radar is being integrated. If you talk of jet engines, it is rarest of the rare technology. US, UK and France are the only three countries who have mastered this technology. Russia and China are still struggling.××××
Meanwhile I don’t like paint scheme of Airforce Tejas. Navy one looks good. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4a4f7172a1871d8bab3d5f1d98f67fabbe6905d76033ff16367a189f9aa4da64.jpg
by Jai Khare
There is huge difference between producing & develope a whole plane from scratch .The way you are producing 70% jf17 ,we are producing 100% su-30mki fighters.And we have produced 250+ su30mki in HAL factories.As far as stealth plane is concerned we have 2 program 1 with russia & second indegenious program develope from scratch called AMCA & its model already designed & are now in testing phace & first prototype will come in 2019-20 .As far as pak stealth program is concerned nothing in reality there was just one news came that you may develop plane with turkey but turkey itself don’t have stealth technologies so stealth only in dreams for pak
by Jai Khare
Yes these technologies dont use by much countries fighter planes only 2-3 countries using some technologies like rafale, typhoon & gripen others planes of usa & russian,china etc dont use delta wings with digital fly by wire with delta wing configuration .Delta wing is high stable design & u have to deliberately make highly instable by changing 2 size of wings & make it fly-able using digital fly by wire. We also developed carbon composite which is cheap cost with all featutes .Even Our composite is so good now HAL is manufacoring It for boeing for their plane doors.As far as jet is concern our kaveri k9 & k10 engine is ready by 2019 it is already 90% complete just tuning phase is going on.
by Jai Khare
But you tell what parts you develeoped of jf17? Now don’t tell you are building 70% of it in pak because it is not called developing a plane it is just called assembling a plane in a same way we are building su30 mki
by Bilal Khan
Pakistan co-funded the development of the JF-17. This gave PAC the right to manufacture 52% of the JF-17’s subassemblies, specifically in the airframe and some of the avionics/electronics. Basically, it’s not CKD assembly.
by Jai Khare
52% Manufactoring right is different thing.We will.also.get 51% right when saab gripen or f16 will be made in India .Now france is also agree with 51% indian share for rafale Manufactoring in India.it wouldn’t reflect how much percent you develope.plane from scratch.You got assembling line rights in pakistan because China don’t want to waste time on otherwise why china haven’t induct jf17??
by Bilal Khan
No. Pakistan got the right to co-produce because it co-funded the program. It’s as simple as that.
by Jai Khare
Now u r coming on right track by accepting it pak haven’t developed any thing in jf17 ,Truth is every part of jf17 is chinese built ,Actually all sub -system,parts ,design every thing already exist(developed)by china for j7 plane your engineers &chineese engineers just take these technologies & modified it according to jf17.Even chief engineer of jf17 yang wei also accept it one interview .He said interview pak had nothing to do with developement of jf17 it was designed by china.Butjas is totally different program it’s designed & developed by ADA and avionics & sub system,fly control system everything is indian develeoped not co-produce by any country.Yes some is buy & installed from foreign because we not able to complete on time like k9&k10 engine,aesa uttam radar etc but both are on verge of completion & will be installed on tejas by 2019-22.As far as gripen is concerned IAF actually requires tejas mk2 variants & if this will not ready by 2020-22 then only we will buy gripen because mig21 is going to start to phase out from 2019.Intially tejas program was started for interceptor fighter which is ideal.current variant of tejas mk1.but now IAF wants multirole like gripen to replace mig21 .Although tejas mk1 also modified as multirole fighter but some qualities like range is less .It has been overcome by installing on air refueling probe.Some more features will now be done in mk2.soon develeopement are going on to develope mk2 if this will be on time then we will not ask to built gripen.Because gripen will also not get inducted in IAF immediately it will take time ,not before 2022 till then if we will develop tejas mk2 then no chance of gripen.Thats why IAF keep delaying gripen peoject ,you have listen about gripen project since 1-2 years but no step taken yet reason is tejas mk2 progress
by Omar Dar
This article was about the Tejas and I asked whether its engine is Indian, but you are answering that you make engines for the SU-30? Why the need to shift the topic? The point is that the Tejas has an imported engine, just like the JF-17, and there is no guarantee that the Kaveri will ever mature. The same goes for the radar, where India is tendering it to foreign suppliers.
Kindly stop day dreaming and wake up. Thanks!
by Omar Dar
Oh my God! India has done so much work, and yet the indigenous content of the Tejas stands at 59.7%? To top it all off the only 4 units of the Tejas have been delivered which are only good for testing purposes? Meanwhile, the IAF continues to fly its old planes and grapples desperately for imported jets.
That is really the hallmark of a successful program!
p.s I wrote that the local content of the Tejas is not MUCH higher than the JF-17. Please learn to read. Thanks.
by Joseph
China doesn’t seem to have any fighter aircraft using medium thrust engines. Almost all it’s fighter aircraft using high thrust engines. I think probably because using just one type of engine saves maintenance cost.
I think for the same reason China is not adopting FC-31, because that is another medium thrust engine plane.
JF-17 is probably too light for China. It seems China using J-10 to fill the similar role as JF-17 for Pakistan.
by Omar Dar
I’m sorry but your comment is highly inaccurate. Firstly, design elements such as the Delta wing are not Indian innovations. The Mirage-3 has a Delta wing and we have been using that since the 1970s. Neither are all of the other “innovations” that you have listed I could debunk all of your other points but I’m not interested in a troll first here.
The important point is that India has not been able to induct the Tejas when it needed it. Now it has to import a fighter jet.
by Joseph
I hear India hired French firm in 2016 to help fixing kaveri, and they offered their engine core instead. Do you have any new source on progress of kaveri engines?
by Son Weichung
No. no core changes were made. the engine is still based on kabini core,made by india for kaveri. snecma was just hired to help increase the engine thrust.
by Omar Dar
Leaving aside the myriad inconsistencies of your comment, the fact remains that the JF-17 is in service and the Tejas is a paper tiger.
Perhaps India would’ve been better off following Pakistan’s approach. Now it has lost more than $2 billion, has a jet which has been rejected by the IAF, is still flying old junks and is now desperately looking for an IMPORTED fighter jet.
Congrats. What a marvelous project this Tejas has been. Hahaha.
by Stan
Where did I say we developed any parts all I said was”I’LL GET BY WITH A LITTLE HELP OF MY FREINDS”khi khi khi I did develop that khi khi khi😀
by Joseph
I am very much interested to know but the thing is there has not been any real news since 2016 so we don’t really know what is happening to the kaveri project.
Do you know something?
by Manju
Navy rejected Tejas citing payload capabilities but actually flying a single engine aircraft for carrier operations is like walking on a thread.No country in world takes a risk of using single engine fighter for aircraft carrier operations, When engine failure occurs the pilot lands in sea several nautical miles away waiting for search and rescue, in case of twin engine atleast there is a chance to get back to carrier on a single one. Regarding IAF they are looking at a cheaper alternative for medium multi role fighters which was actually meant for 126 Rafale as India have Su30mki in air superiority category and Tejas will only replace MiG21 (or even MiG27) for point air defence roles. Grippen E or F-16 are meant to compliment Rafale or replace current MiG 29 and Mirage 2000 not Tejas.
by Joseph
F-35B is a single engine strike aircraft for carriers. Sea Harrier is also single engine carrier aircraft.
Tejas is the same class of aircraft as Gripen (And JF-17). Their maximum take off weight and engine thrust (both are F404, the versions are different) are about the same according to wikipedia.
If Tejas was as good as what India said on paper then it would be pointless to for India to buy Gripen.
I am not pro or against India, just stating the obvious.
by ahmria
I agree with a lot of what you have said and yes Pakistan aerospace entities are still in an early state of development but the Tejas in its present form is also at the moment just like the JF17 Thunder and is not an indigenous fighter jet. in fact all its major subsystems like its engine (American), radar (Israeli) AAMs ( Israeli and Russian) and the initial design for the Tejas was assisted by the French who also provided and as far as I am aware are also providing assistance to make the indigenous Kaveri engine work. Nothing wrong with developing an indigenous aerospace industry but the truth is it takes a lot of time and money to make it happen. License producing foreign systems helps but until you make everything yourself like the Europeans, Americans and Russians you cannot say that what you have assembled is made in India or made in Pakistan. The Su30 MKI again is just a SU27 modified to Indian air force specifications. Both India and Pakistan have along way to go before we can claim to make our own fighter jets and that is the harsh truth.
by Son Weichung
Well I don’t know much about that either. I just told you what I read from a defense news site. It said that about 90% of the engine work was completed and only some fine tuning was required. It also said that the engines would be complete and ready to be delivered by 2018 or 2019.
by ahmria
Licence producing Russian jet engines from kits is not the same as making those engines from scratch, If that was the case Indian would not have availability problems with the Su30s while they wait on Russia to supply replacement engine parts. Assembly of imported parts is not the same as indigenous manufacturing. India is still the world no1 arms importer and will continue to be so until it as you say masters those crucial technologies and actually makes all of it from R&D to testing and serial production.
by ahmria
Really? if that is the case why are all the critical systems still foreign and imported/license produced.
by ahmria
Okay i’ve just about stopped laughing. You sir are hilarious. The Tejas is light years behind the Su30 in terms of technology and as for its supposedly stealthy qualities that would probably be more down to the fact it is a relatively small jet as opposed to stealthy by design.
by amar
Hi @ahmria:disqus
Judging by the way you have composed your reply, it is clearly evident that you have little to no experience of research in Aerospace. Saying Tejas isnt indigenous just because a couple of critical subsystems are imported is not founded. One can not draw an analogy between LCA and JF-17 in terms of indigenous metric. I am afraid for you — using foreign subsystems is same as somebody giving you the entire design and setting up facilities so that you can manufacture that jet at home? At least India tried developing those subsystems. It is a different matter that those sub systems: engine and radars werent mature enough to be integrated onto the jet. What you fail to realize at the moment, is the fact that for a country like India whose industries are still evolving, these research programs provide a great learning experience–for instance a lot of lot of small to medium aero engines have been recently designed(I have personally witnessed the test firing of 25kN aero engine that has potential to be used in jet trainers, small-medium business jets etc. Interestingly that engine was entirely 3d printed in Bangalore!) and Kaveri is roughly 70-80% complete in terms of maturity. If it fails, they will try again and keep trying till they succeed. Also a point to be noted, is that in radars, LRDE, has come a long way and have designed various advanced AESA radars(L-star, Arudhra, Ashwin to name a few). Infact the work on AESA radar for LCA is going on and will achieve maturity in near future.
Also you do not understand the fact that the original design of the jet was “conceived” here in India and all the wind tunnel tests were performed in India at either IISc or NAL bangalore.
Indeed su-30 is a variation of su-27, albeit with a lot of Indian, Israeli and french sub -systems. However you again fail to realize that the contract that was signed between India and Russia in late 90s force India to buy certain supporting equipment and spares from Russian enterprises alone! Apart from perhaps the single crystal blades of AL-31, there is hardly anything(in terms of major critical subsystem technology) in that jet that cant be manufactured in India at the moment. Same is the situation in Brahmos as well, wherein India is expected to source nearly 30% of the components(by value) from Russian enterprises. Infact in a recent report tabled in the parliament, those components can be very easily manufactured in India by Indian pvt players.
If you believe that both India and Pakistan are at the same level in research and development, then good for you!
by amar
Kindly read the contract documents of su-30 deal that was signed in late 90s. You would understand the reason why there are availability issues. As for the engine, apart from single crystal blades, rest everything else is manufactured at HAL koraput. Kindly use google more often, and since India is much more transparent than your country, you would actually end up knowing a lot. Also a word of advice, do not pay much heed to pvt news media in India–they work on the behest of foreign MNCs. In India, a lot of times, the weapons programs are shown in very dim light in order to prepare an atmosphere for imports. You have no clue how deeply entrenched are interests of giants like LM, Saab, boeing in Indian media outlets.
by Joseph
After 30 years, I would not be surprised even 99% per cent was completed. But the fact India giving up the project in 2014 (according to wikipedia), I’d say it requires more than just fine tuning.
The French firm was brought in as part of rafale deal to fix the engine in 2016. But no news since then. If it were an easy thing to fix, we would probably hear something about it by now and they wouldn’t have offered their engine core instead.
by Joseph
Tejas has less payload than F-16, yes, because F-16 is using a high thrust engine and is a larger plane.
But no, Tejas has similar payload and range as Gripen.
Tejas is a multi-role fighter (To qualify as an interceptor, Tejas needs to be very fast, but that is not the case), and on paper Tejas’s performance is about the same as Gripen.
by Omar Dar
What was the objective of the LCA Tejas program? Was it intended to replace the single engined jets of the IAF? Or was it a science project?
The fact is that the IAF today needs to immediately replace its jet fighter fleet, but the Tejas is still under development and now India is tendering for an imported fighter jet. Meanwhile, the JF-17 fleet will be marking a decade of service.
I don’t need to tell you how many systems Pakistan has developed. As a project, the JF-17 has developed on time and in full. The Tejas has only delivered excuses and explanations.
by rtnguy
Brother ur armed forces are fooling u people on JF17. JF17 is a dud because its engine RD93 is simply a failed engine. India has experienced it with Mig 29 that has 2 not 1 RD93s. The MBTO of RD93 is mere 1500hours and it cannot fight for long at high altitudes. I cant imagine how PAF will fight with a crippled single RD 93 aircraft. PAF has deployed JF17 because it is basically free and can carry all armaments but in war what matters is how long the aircraft can be in air before it has to land on ground for rest and repair.
by Aviral Singh
The only failure tejas project had was project management. Scientists were givn responsibility to take forward the project instead of a professional. Please do watch the two videos I posted in one of my comment of this thread to understand what we achieved with this project. In one of the video you will find that the softwares developed for Tejas project are currently being used by Boeing, Airbus and various other multinational companies.
by Omar Dar
Dude, who is fooling whom can be judged by who has delivered a product and who has delivered excuses. The JF-17 equips 5 squadrons and the LCA Tejas doesn’t number 5 production units.
Whatever the shortcomings of the JF-17, it is undeniable that it is better than the MIG-21 the IAF flies right now and the F-7 it replaced in PAF service. Can the Tejas defend from the drawing board. In any case, the F-6 (Chinese MIG-19) was a very maintenance intensive plane, and we shot down IAF MIG-21’s with it.
by rtnguy
Brother by that logic even Britain and France can today deploy 1000s of 1960 era hunters to fill up their squadron strength. JF17 is a 3rd generation fighter which went out of circulation in 80s itself. It is Mig 29 with one engine and India had been offered the whole Mig 29 and even Mig35 factory at a pittance in 1990s by bankrupt Russia but we refused point blank. Do u know why? Because we know the reality of Russian engines. RD 93 after sustained use often would break down in less than 1000 hours in the Mig 29s we operated. Its hot core design has a critical flaw as it was hurriedly built based on stolen blueprints. Heck even the Su30mki we operate which has NPO Saturn engines which are far superior to RD93 is deemed by IAF to be substandard as its MBTO is 3500hours. This is why IAF has made it clear that India will never now buy a Russian aircraft ever. IAF also wants the FGFA cancelled because IAF has 5 decade experience with Russian aircrafts and Russian aircraft design is unbeatable but their engines and avionics are of very poor quality.Has the PAF revealed to Pakistani public how many training hours they do with JF17. The LCA tejas has achieved its FOC and will be deployed in its 1 and 1A configuration with GEF04 engines which are far superior and durable than RD93 of JF17. And IAF will now focus only on inducting newer rafale fighters, LCA tejas with GE f404 and GE414 engines with MTBO of 8000 hours compare to 1500 hours of JF17.This means an LCA can be at air 6 times more than a JF17. Rafales snecma engine technology will also be shared with India and will power our AMCA. IAF is happy with french engines although US engines are best but come with strings attached.
by Rolexer
People start comparing Tejas with the JF-17 and dismiss the former by saying that the 1.)level of indigenisation is probably equal or less than the JF-17 and 2.)critical parts such as radar and engine are not of indian origin.
Even though Pakistan manufactures 52% of the parts and sub-assemblies on JF-17, my humble question is how much of that Pakistan or its engineers have actually designed and developed on their own? That is to say from the scratch, taking it through years and years of R&D and then testing and evaluating it, which is the norm for any other major aeronautical project across the world? What is the percentage of technology on-board the JF-17 which Pakistan can truly claim as its own which has been designed and developed from ground-up in Pakistan that too by Pakistani engineers? The Answer is none. Even though Pakistan Aeronautical Complex might be manufacturing an ‘X’ number of components onboard the JF-17, the FACT is nearly all the components have been designed and developed by the CHINESE engineers in CHINA!! As far as JF-17 is concerned all Pakistan does is copy the blueprint handed over to them by China, follow the instruction manual sincerely and then translate the blueprint into functional components. That hardly qualifies as scientific R&D or innovation in my opinion.
On the other hand, Indian engineers have been able to find success in atleast some of the sub-systems and have independently designed from scratch the airframe, fly-by-wire systems, Head Up Display, Digital flight control computer, Identification Friend of Foe (IFF), SAAW bombs among others which are 100% indigenous.
All this has come after years and years of testing, failures, and a close cooperation between
IAF test pilots and Indian aeronautical industries, resulting in numerous modifications. Bottom line is, even though Tejas uses a lot of foreign imported systems such as radar and engine, it will always be more Indian than JF-17 could ever claim to be Pakistani.
Simply because the Pakistani scientific contribution in designing the aircraft from ground-up is next to zero. Laying down pilot requirements for chinese engineers is a lot different from designing the sub-systems yourself employing your own engineers.
As far as imported engine or radar on Tejas is concerned, India is actively working to produce a functional indigenous jet engine called ‘Kaveri’, albeit with foreign assistance. Similarly India has successfully developed Uttam AESA radar which currently equips the 5 tejas aircrafts forming the No.45 squadron. Again my question is, what kind of AESA radar or Jet engine pakistan has ever produced or is even in the process of producing?
Does it even have the required infrastructure or personnel in place to come up with such technology? Is Pakistan’s defense industry even actively spending on any such on-going projects? Even after such hyped up relationship with a technological power house like China, Pakistan is no where close to even design an indigenous AESA radar like Uttam which india has.
The point being, even though the defense equipment produced by india might not be at par with int’l systems (atleast not presently), one thing which is sure is that India has already begun its long and arduous journey of achieving independence in defense manufacturing which Pakistan so far hasn’t.
For all the hardcore critics, Rome wasn’t built in a day and so will be India’s defense industry. But India has in earnest started this project of self-sufficiency in defense and sooner or later India will achieve its goal.
Moreover, Tejas isn’t and wont for the time being form the bulk of the fighting force of IAF. It is still evolving and undergoing modifications. Bulk of the fighting will be done by Su-30, Rafales, Gripen, FGFA etc which i believe is more than enough to handle whatever the PAF has to offer. However Tejas is a living example of technological edge and self sufficiency which India has gained over its rival neighbor Pakistan and the direction in which the Indian defense industry is heading. And as the things presently stand the difference between two countries is bound to grow further in the future as far as self sufficiency in making defense equipment is concerned.
by MT
Bcoz they haven’t reached the desired maturity but have been evolving.
Say for eg India used its own indigenous turbojet engine and have developed few turbofan engine with many in development stages.
Indian aircraft miniaturized radar for Tejas was only inferior to Elta.
What differentiates India with Pak is that latter hasn’t invested much in any defence research.
by Bilal Khan
The PAF revealed (via Alan Warnes) that they flew 19,000 hours on the JF-17 by April 2016.
by rtnguy
That is different from war training hours. In real time exercises aircrafts go for repeat sorties without any real rest or repair. The problems we faced with Mig 29 in Kargil was that RD93 simply gave up in sustained sorties so we had to make limited use.OTOH Mirage 2000 kept on going. JF17 needs a better engine without which it will be a one legged horse.
by Son Weichung
Well, they gave up because increasing the thrust was difficult and to test it they had to take it to Russia every time who even denied to let India buy a test bed. And about the core part, they offered because working on their own core would be easier than working on another core. Increasing the thrust is more difficult than you think. Making an aircraft engine in itself is a great achievement. Even my country China with about 5 times the economic size of India has a difficulty in making aircraft engines, so I don’t expect India anyway to make one in a single try without help. It’s kept hidden from public due to security issues I think.
by Nuno
Nah, to become as a medium category fighter it has to have it’s range increase exponentially but it is not increased because it is meant to be a interceptor with a low range. Yeah the weapons payload capability is almost same but still there is a difference of about 500kg.
by Joseph
An interceptor usually needs to fly at mach 3, Tejas can’t even fly at mach 2, what convinced you that it is an interceptor?
by TZK
The point has been missed that Pak objective was always to obtain a usable jet quickly to fill a gap in PAF inventory because of sanctions with only one nation offering help. Pak did not have luxury of spending time and resources developing every associated expertise and technology along the way. Secondly Pak has been disadvantage historically in that majority of industrial infrastructure left by the British remained in India after partition. Given its resources and international assistance enjoyed by India I think Tejas is probably a disappointment. As a design Tejas appears to be a fusion of a bit of the jaguar and a large part of the Mirage. If one was designing a jet from scratch I would have thought that at least the design was unique. Also why is IAF seeking to purchase a single engine western jet surely Tejas could fill that role.
by Joseph
From what I hear the problems are more than just thrust and weight, also including mystery banging noises Indian engineers could not work out where they are from and why: https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03/indian-kaveri-turbofans-last-mile-problem-a-mystery-noise.html
by RB
The idea is to make HAL a leading integrator rather making everything in house. Besides this it will create an aerospace ecosystem conducive to make more advanced future weapons.
by RB
Consultancy is only about giving inputs they don’t sit down and make it for us.
by RB
boy you need education
by Jack More
Please learn to rerad or ask Admin.Pakistan just manufactures 59% Airframe i repeat Airframe of JF17.Rest everything is imported from China.And its 59.7% is because Engine constitutes a major part of the jet i hope you know.And about Tejas’s capabilities read JF and Tejas comparison by quwa website.I agree local content of Tejas is not higher than JF17 as by local i mean China.Thanks.
by Jack More
Even then We(must say I) can never believe their data.They are known for lies many times like hiding crashes and saying that they sank ins vikrant etc.So i guess this must be for publicity of jf17.
by Joseph
Do you have a citable source about this? I mean about the fact the noise problem was fixed?
by Joseph
No, you are the one don’t understand interceptors. Any fighter aircraft can call itself interceptor, but a dedicated interceptor need to be fast to react to enemy threats. That is why MiG-31 can cruise at mach 2.35 and have a maximum speed of mach 2.85, that is what a dedicated interceptor look like.
What I am saying is that Tejas was definitely not built as an interceptor. India can use it as interceptor, but likely due to it’s subpar performance. I mean you can’t even call it a multi-role fighter, what else can you do other than scrap the project?
by Omar Dar
Haha. Defence minister A K Antony confirmed in the 2014 that the development cost of Tejas up till that time was $1.09 billion. Since that time, India has had to modify and develop the Tejas which has escalated its cost beyond $2 billion.
This shows your inefficient knowledge in this regard.
by Mohammed
Thanks Joseph, your comments are very informative for me as I’m new in this site.
by Joseph
I am glad you think so and you are most welcome.
by Amit
not quite a news, news will be when we will have our lca being delivered with homegrown kaveri engine 🙂
by Jack More
Tejas is still far better than JF17 and JF 17 is used in PAF only because they had no other choice.And about localization,even Saab Gripen have more contents from other nations than Tejas so gripen is not sweden’s jet.WooW what a theory and in above lines you have proven the knowledge about these jets.
by Jack More
And about JF17,Just to remind you that it was even rejected by it’s owners.It is like a flying metal piece with bombs attached to it.Yeah block 3 might be better but right now it stands no chance against any mediocre jet leave aside tejas,gripen etc.