One of the central driving aspects of Pakistan’s armed forces procurement strategy is the need to avoid risks, complications, and added costs where unnecessary. It is for this reason that the vast majority of the country’s defence equipment – including those produced locally – are of foreign (mostly Chinese) origin.
Some are evidently straightforward imports, such as the Burraq unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and Barq laser-guided air-to-ground missile, and others are heavily customized and tuned-up off-the-shelf designs, such as the al-Khalid main battle tank (MBT). In exceptional cases, unique designs are developed with heavy Chinese assistance, such as the JF-17 multi-role fighter and potentially the Navy’s new submarine.
To be fair, this is not a bad strategy. A country’s defence requirements are never static, threats will keep changing and requirements will keep escalating. As a result, a developing country with scarce resources for high-tech armaments needs to be very pragmatic in its defence procurement strategies. The prospect of being sunk by a program’s escalating costs and restrained by its delays could be incredibly damaging if the financial cushion to sustain such obstacles are not present.
However, there is a cost to such an approach. It maintains dependency on external suppliers. It threatens disincentives towards domestic development efforts. It pushes the prospect of indigenous work further into the future, and in some cases, threatens to eliminate the incentive to engage in domestic research and development at all. For these reasons it becomes imperative for Pakistan to not take its external suppliers for granted, even in the best of conditions.
Even if the path to buying a readily available solution is present, in some cases it may be a viable practice to trust in the riskier and costlier route. This is especially true in areas that are technologically sensitive in nature, especially for vendors who are looking to maintain dependency in their markets as a means for recurring income, or to keep their cards as close as possible to their chests, so as to ensure enemies do not have access to sensitive information. Others will simply demand a high price for valuable technology and expertise, so as to offset the cost of losing a customer who may use that expertise to develop domestically sourced solutions. Of course, that is assuming the technology transfer is comprehensive.
One such area is missile technology for air-to-air and surface-to-air applications. On the surface, it may seem like Pakistan has no shortage of options, at least from China anyways. The SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) has reportedly emerged as a good solution for use on the JF-17, and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) could bank on its long-enduring relationship with Beijing to acquire next-generation designs, such as an export variant of the PL-15.
But the truth is that there is no export version of the PL-15, at least for the time being. There probably will be, but that is an assumption, and not necessarily a fact. Not every Chinese system has an export variant. From China’s point of view, the PL-15 would be its premium air-to-air missile, and potentially a valuable asset that ought to be sat on for a few years before made available for export. Meanwhile, India has the nearing prospect of acquiring the MBDA Meteor, a next-generation BVRAAM with a particularly high kill-probability rate. Granted, one can argue that China has a strategic interest to specially equip Pakistan, so as to enable Pakistan to relieve some of the pressure India is trying to apply on China. Even if this were to occur (a possibility), it does not negate the underlying problem – i.e. the fact that Pakistan has to anxiously wait for an external source in order to pursue its own needs. Even if one were to accept this line of reasoning, the prospect of actually sourcing next-generation BVRAAMs domestically would be a much more preferable outcome.
Of course, Pakistan does not have the foundation nor expertise to engage in such a program on its own. But it does have an opportunity to build that necessary groundwork. Fate would have it that there is an experienced vendor in the world willing to develop next-generation air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles (SAM), and to part ways from the technology and expertise used to develop them.
That vendor is Denel Dynamics, a South African firm. In exchange for funding the development of the Marlin, a program seeking to develop next-generation BVRAAM as well as SAM technology and solutions, the end-user could receive a heavy infusion of valuable technology and technology expertise. Above that, the buyer would acquire a design that it could freely integrate and use with the platforms of its choice.
By investing in the A-Darter 5th-generation within-visual-range air-to-air missile (WVRAAM), Brazil was able to push forward with its own seeker and electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) technology. It will also produce the A-Darter domestically. At this time, the A-Darter is also in the running for the PAF’s requirement of a 5th-generation WVRAAM for use on the JF-17 Thunder.
The Marlin (as an air-to-air missile) is expected to have a maximum range of 100km. The design’s dual-pulse rocket will also be purposed for SAM applications as well, likely along the trajectory of the Israeli-Indian Barak-8, which will equip various surface combatants in service with India and Israel. Given that Denel Dynamics already has a 60km-range SAM under development (i.e. Umkhonto-R), it is reasonable to project the Marlin SAM to at least begin as a short to medium-range (25-40km) system. But it is important to note that the dual-pulse rocket technology the Marlin uses could be further developed over time, thus opening up the prospect of a medium to long-range (60-90km) system.
It is evident that engaging in such a program would not only benefit the PAF, but it would be of value to the Pakistan Navy and the Pakistan Army. In fact, there are layers of results that could be accrued: First, the PAF would have a next-generation BVRAAM. Second, the Navy would have access to a SAM system that it could use aboard surface combatants such as frigates and corvettes. Third, the Army would have a SAM system as well, one that could be developed over time into a medium to long-range system. Fourth, Pakistan would be in possession of valuable dual-pulse propulsion, seeker, and ECCM technology, which it can use as a foundation to indigenously develop next-generation solutions.
There is a cost. The A-Darter program cost Brazil and South Africa $130 million U.S. India and Israel agreed to $330 million U.S. in order to develop the Barak-8 SAM. Investment in the Marlin could amount to several hundred million dollars. It would be unfair and disingenuous to suggest that the amount required would be minor or inconsequential.
However, does Pakistan have to be the sole funding partner? Not necessarily. It is possible that Pakistan’s funding could serve as motivation for others, such as Turkey, to co-fund as well. Turkey has a higher incentive at this point to acquire the same technology for its own uses, and it would not necessarily be averse to having Pakistan as a co-funding partner. Each partner could emerge with total access to the technology as well as the means to produce the systems domestically and to use them on their respective platforms. In fact, given the benefits that could be accrued from the program, the PAF does not have to be the sole backer within Pakistan. Each of the service arms ought to have an interest in the program, as should the country’s R&D players (e.g. NESCOM, AWC, SUPARCO, etc). There is potential here for cost-distribution, even within Pakistan (which would be helpful if Pakistan has to fund the program alone).
There are several ways to detract this idea.
First, it is an expensive idea, one fraught with substantial risk and complexity. However, the payoff of acquiring highly valuable technology that could be scaled for a wide range of strategically important applications. Moreover, Denel Dynamics is a seasoned vendor, it has the Marlin is actually a culmination of development going back 15-20 years, and the company has just proven that it could deliver the A-Darter – a 5th-generation WVRAAM akin to the AIM-9X and IRIS-T – if given the funding.
Second, one will argue that it would be more affordable to simply wait for China and the PL-15, or perhaps even an upgraded variant of the SD-10. To be frank, to suggest such an idea would mean making the assumption that the PL-15 would be exported in some shape or form. At this point, there is nothing to suggest that it will, not every Chinese system is made available for export. Granted, China could make some exceptions on the basis of pursuing its strategic interests, but this does not resolve the issue of having to depend on an external source. Alternatively, China could also offer a heavily upgraded version of the SD-10, and that would be a great option for the interim, but it does not compensate for having a next-generation design – i.e. a design that can be developed upon for decades into the future.
Third, one will note that Pakistan is a relatively risk-averse entity, one that will prefer to wait it out for the Chinese. In many cases, being risk-averse is a virtue, but there are situations where certain technology will not easily be acquired. The MBDA Sea Ceptor would be an ideal short to medium-range SAM system for use on the Pakistan Navy’s F-22P frigates. Unfortunately, one can without a doubt expect regulatory hurdles to get in the way of making such an acquisition feasible, and if not that, then certainly expect cost. Why not utilize Denel’s expertise to develop a comparable solution without any artificial limitations to performance? Why not call upon Denel to enable Pakistan to actually produce the system? The JF-17 has given the PAF a measure of freedom and authority that it has not had with any other platform, so why is this idea not being expanded to other critical aspects of the armed forces?
Fourth, South Africa requires funding and time to develop, others already have solutions available on the shelves. This argument completely omits the fact that in-exchange for the funding, Pakistan would receive a measure of technology transfer that Denel’s competitors will not offer. Pakistan can optionally tie its funding to achieve specific objectives, such as having a SAM system similar to the Barak-8, i.e. a medium to long-range system that is compact and light enough to be fit on the F-22P. Pakistan’s national funds are limited, why not use them to not only acquire a product, but acquire the means to produce it, to design it for multiple mission roles, and build expertise that can be used to indigenously source future solutions?
The late 2000s had put a dampener on Pakistan-South African defence relations (for multiple reasons with both sides being responsible). However, when the Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program noted the A-Darter as a contender for the Thunder’s WVRAAM requirement, it lent hope that ties between the sides could finally be returning. It is our hope that long-term interests are put ahead of short-term expediency.
unfair to compare barak8 model as desired JV from tech tot perspective.
Barak8 is farzi Jv where drdo has to assemble 60~% israeli components such as seeeker, flight control, software based radar, seeker & booster powered by state of art thrust vectoring.
Drdo only contributed in development of dual pulse rocket motor with tungsten jeyr vanes (replaced in later version with SIC jet vanes), electro pneumatic actuators which only comprises of 20% by value.
Another 20% cost for fuselage, rocket fuel and integration so israel has declared not to share any tech of 60~ % critical components including aesa radar.
Admin should know that drdo paid 70% funds for entire project IP development and drdo ll get only 30% profit from third country sales.
india is buying 3-4bill $ worth barak8 so admin should know how costly are these SAM technology.
French are demanding 10 bill $ orders for sharing 90 era mica technology to india even after india have 2-3 decades tech advantage over pakistan.
I ll summarise price of different tech.
1 Dual pulse rocket propulsion:500mill $
2. seeker : 2-3bill $
3. Thrust vectoring engine, software radar,flight control : 2bill $
so if pak pay 4-5bill $ then it can get full ip of such technologies
otherwise any sam orders worth 10+bill $ ll also come with majority TOT.
lately world arms exporters charge varied prices depending on your capabilities.
it ll be hard for pak to bargain good prices with nascent internal r&d
2-3 decades tech advantage over pakistan you are a moron who only live in dream world go fuck some where else
Indian do not have any advantage over pakistan else then in long term war and in navy pakistan air force can match Indian air force in every way i must insist do some reach about pakistan army
2-3 decades advantage in research development
pak relies on cheeni weapons with nill r&d in pakistan
Great idea and great article.
I think it’s the next logical step in air force’s self reliance strategy to start building missiles for its fighters as well.
Have you could tried contacting the authorities in the air force?
Exactly my thoughts too, Jigsaww. This and other such articles present excellent ideas on how Pak military can make rapid advances in aquiring required technical know how. Just frustrating not knowing how much of it is filtering thru to the relevant individuals.
It would be nice, yes, provided air force has not given it a thought already. I’d be more interested in getting a comment on such idea straight from the source, which is pretty difficult for many reasons, but its quite possible they’ve already tried doing that. PAF has been looking on alternative sources in last 10 years.
I’m not sure how far south africa or brazil would agree on JVs and all if PAF agrees to idea itself. Until we know what PAF thinks about it, these ideas are good but remain for public consumption.
As far as chinese missiles and other equipment is concerned, arranging them for PAF and pakistani military in general is not an issue even if export restrictions exist. i.e. if pakistani military seriously pursues them. In case of J-10 and many other cases, PAF has actually rejected the J-10A after initial thoughts and asked for improvements in J-10 which came in form of J-10B but were not pursued because of F-16s coming in freely and JF-17 getting on course. They’ve been able to get SD-10 and will SD-10B as well. Same goes for PL-15. Restrictions rarely come into play with Chinese export to Pakistan. Their top notch equipment is still not top notch for Pakistani military standards, which operates traditionally top of the line weaponry. The whole reason of increasing reliance on chinese is to avoid the 90’s revisit with technology lagging, sanctions, and capability gaps. Chinese may not provide at a level of 9/10 but will provide at 7/10.
I think it goes back to the problem that PAF does not want to mix technologies and open too many JVs and ventures. More air forces are giving up extensive diversification in the platforms. Egypt is an example where you’d find all kinds of western and eastern jets in the air force.
Ideas are great for brainstorming down the lane in long run. But practically what i see is pakistan will continue buying more weaponry from china and west in near future.
Eventually self sufficiency is the answer.
Ideas are just ideas. What’s written here might get through to some folks, they’ll debate it, and they’ll (hopefully) come to the correct conclusion (which could agree or disagree with what’s here). I think the more is pushed (quasi think-tank) the better.
It’s a good work you are doing. Keep up.
these things are out of pakistan’s financial reach
Why? Just because you like to see it that way?
First try to arrange adequate funds for your 70% obsolete air force and other military branches and then do finger pointing.
272 su 30+120 tejas+70 mig 29(upgraded)+60 mirage 2000(upgraded)+120 jaguars(upgrading)+36 rafale=678+FGFA(planned)
all this is has already been confirmed by 2023
Like 200 MMRCA and 200 PAKFA were confirmed in 2008?
Let’s not get carried away. We all know how much credibility is in anything Hindustan says.
And with the kind of jet Tejas is, PAF would like hindustan to induct 200 of these. Actually No. Make that 500. LOL.
pak fa is planned for 2020 onwards there is no delay in that which russian arms exporter rosoboronexport confirmed
126 MMRCA might be off but india is replacing that with 120 LCA+36 rafale +another option which india looking at such as mig 35,follow on rafale order etc.
Natak is part of Hindu religion so fake it till you make it
why did cheeni junk fighter run away from Bahrain airshow &;forfeited mill $ entry charge
Well if you want my personal view on this, it goes like this: it’s frankly below any and all standards of PAF and for that matter JF-17 to be parked next to an air force like hindustani air force or a junk like Tejas. I mean we are talking some class here. Pakistan air force is a world respected air force that trains amongst the best, is amongst the best, and is rated amongst the best, besides being solely responsible for creating many middle eastern forces from ground up. HIndustani air force on the other hand, is a domestic regional air arm of hindustani military, that holds the world record of being shot down most in an aerial warfare ever undertaken by man kind. You don’t degrade yourself by getting parked next to such garbage. This does not bode well with marketing. This is an international marketing event. An obsolete unfinished product vs. a modern in service product are two classes apart. A world respected air force with best of the best world records to its name vs. a pile of garbage. That is itself a marketing failure.
There is also a real version to it, which tells us that PAF never ever committed to bahrain air show. Bahrain air show can put up all kinds of stories for all they want. I don’t think PAF is the kind of air force who would ever backtrack vs. an airforce it owns in all records.
Your hindustani media comes up with all kinds of fabricated garbage stories all day long. You should not consume that but then again how would you out so much garbage if you stopped consuming that? Right?
pak is not among top 20 military nation and its only going to detoriate with more imports from china & 0 local r& d.
Well it’s better than begging the whole world for parts, imports, equipment, designs, and testing in name of aid by showing crippled and malnourished ppl to UN and world bodies. Soimething hindustan has mastered over years.
I haven’t heard of single free weapons doled out to India in last20yrs.
Paying for weapons is big help to Western companies from Indian tax payers money.
On the contrary ;Pak have biggest begging bowl from IMF to USA to UK,europe.
USA alone have doled 7bill $ weapon to Pak while Pak continue to support Taliban Islamist.
As Us realize Pak army have no interest in controlling Taliban; the free weapons which r to be delivered around 2018 ll be sanctioned.
With US shunning all aid to terrorist nation from2017 ;Pak ll then have to borrow more IMF money to buy cheeni junk
What difference does it make if you haven’t heard? Who are you?
Just a below average tom, dick, or harry, though i’d prefer dick!
It’s an established fact hindustan has been faking and fabricating its GDP growth in a useless effort to rise up to China. Everything coming out of Hindustan is proven fabricated or fake.
That fraudulent GDP growth coupled with largest begging of aid showing the world the ugly hindustani face has paid off, which is all being redirected now into begging for more weapons.
Half of the nation is forced to living in slums, the other half is forced on selling kidneys, but the narrative installed in empty brains is “we want war with Pakistan. We want to teach a lesson to Pakistan”.
I guess u r living in previous decade
india govt gets almost nill aid. some indian ngo make money fooling West in order to spread Christianity and run their agenda.
on the contrary pak state gets bill$ yearly in name of fake war where pak army is biggest terrorist to fund and facilitate taliban
Previous decade is not previous century. It is present history of hindustan which is full of aid begging, not just for one decade but for last 7 decades.
Hindustani gov is receiving and asking for US and UK aid to this day while fabricating the figures.
West likes to donate to beggars and by world standard, hindustan has the most beggars, is the biggest beggar, and has the most poverty in the entire world. More than whole africa combined. Fact.
show me one statement of indian govt asking for American Nd British aid
I can find daily pakistan begging statement in media.
Jahil. Go and read the reports of largest recepients of US and UK aid.
is it written in madrassa language as I can’t find any statements from indian govt pleading west for aid to support its budget.
we see 100 of such statement frm pak bhikari politicians once they visit abroad
Pakistani politcians are bhikari. And so are you.
The news will reach your hindustani slum soon.
Wait for it.
There are 3 other points to detract from this suggestion; with the last (3rd) point being the most crucial:
1) Suppose Pak invests heavily with Denel, and develops a competitor to the PL-15. Now this product will be competing directly against it in the global market, if and when the restrictions on the PL-15 are lifted… How would the Chinese react to this? China helps us build the JF-17 (to name just one project) and we, in turn, make it a point help fund China’s competitors? Even if the Chinese are polite about it, I’m sure they won’t be too happy with this move.
2) Let’s say we spend half a decade (or more) of R&D with Denel and come up with a result that’s 90% as effective as the first iteration of the PL-15, and well behind its Block II… Now we’ve pissed off the Chinese and have a product that isn’t as effective, which we would’ve acquired by that point anyway, since the export controls on the PL-15 would probably have been lifted in that time-frame… Again, not a good move.
3) Most importantly: Perhaps the problem isn’t Chinese restrictions. Maybe if we had been investing in our universities, like civilized societies are supposed to do, we would’ve had a proficient R&D sector by now, that would’ve already been collaborating with Chinese R&D on a much higher level. Perhaps we would’ve already co-developed an even better version of the PL-15, together with China. Instead, we have professors that are publishing ‘scientific’ papers in local journals on capturing ‘jinns’ to generate electricity…
Let’s not assume China isn’t willing to help, just because they restrict Tier-One tech, like every other country. Let’s instead get our own act together by investing in higher education, and the tech-side of the equation will naturally fall into place, without offending those who have helped us.
1. At present, a competitor to Chinese munitions would have to work from a Chinese platform. Granted, we would develop the Marlin for use on the JF-17, but it is within our right to prevent the missile from being integrated on export JF-17s. In that sense, the Chinese may not have a competitor (Pakistani market notwithstanding).
2. A valid scenario, but what if the PL-15 released to us (as an export version) isn’t as effective as the Marlin, which we’d get using South Africa’s Tier-A attention?
3. Valid. In this case, we’d need intent and funding to pull in valuable expertise and R&D foundations from somewhere, perhaps China would help if we show we’re serious. But then again, I think (if given the money) South Africa has a higher motivation to give us more.
1) So the JF-17 will be banned from using the Marlin, both of which would be manufactured in Pakistan? Such tactics will only hurt both products, without really solving the problem of offending China, as the Marlin will still be a competitor to the PL-15 in the global market.
2) What “tier A” attention can S.Africa provide, regarding an advanced BVRAAM? They don’t even have one, while China’s already there.
3) Why do you think S.A. has a “higher motivation” to “give us more”?? I have no idea where you’re getting this idea from… Is S.A. facing a borderline hostile India on its southern border, that’s helping the US trap its oceanic supply lines? It is in China’s own interest to have a strong Pakistan that can stand on its own two feet against India. S.A has no strategic interests aligned with Pakistan.
1. The JF-17s in PAF can use Marlin, that doesn’t mean JF-17s offered for export have to use the Marlin. The PAF can simply not offer the Marlin, just as it is not offering the Ra’ad or MAR-1. Chinese munitions such as the PL-15 et. al can be offered to prospective JF-17 customers instead.
Another point, the only way the Marlin would be a competitor against the PL-15 on the market is if there’s someone willing and able to integrate it onto the JF-17, FC-20, FC-31, and L-15.
If the PAF isn’t going to offer the Marlin for export with JF-17, then that leaves Denel to offer it on its own end. In all likelihood, the customer looking to get Marlin would have to pay Denel for integrating it. This could be a disincentive for the customer, thus prompting the customer to go for Chinese munitions, would already be integrated with the Chinese platform.
2. Whatever Denel can do according to its ability, we would get it, as opposed to pared down export versions. Now given the amount of investment China has put into its own hardware, I’ll concede that the export version of the PL-15 could be superior to the Marlin.
3. We’d get the most out of Denel’s technological capacity, their only incentive to develop is the funding a customer gives it, hence the customer gets a relatively higher level of latitude. China will definitely develop really effective goods for its own needs, but how wide is the margin going to be between domestic systems and their exports? How long would we have to wait until China decides to release a PL-15A (when it has PL-15B for its own use)?
1) If the PL-15 is being offered for export in this scenario, why is the PAF bothering with the Marlin in the first place?
2) The PL-15 will be a better BVRAAM, it’s hard to argue otherwise. But you feel the Marlin is a safer bet… See point 3 below for the rebuttal:
3) I think you’re grossly over-estimating the sincerity of corporate incentives, over strategic imperatives of nation states… Suppose half-way through your R&D timeline with Denel, India decides to play spoiler and offers Denel twice the money we’ve invested to buy X and develop Z, with the unsaid caveat that its commitments to Pakistan suffer as a consequence… What do you think Denel will do then? You’ve already stated that Denel’s “only incentive… is the funding” right? So what if Denel starts getting funding by our competitor?
I’ll say again, there is no reason to think that China wouldn’t be willing to help build up our local R&D efforts, when all evidence points to the contrary… Why not invest the funding that would’ve gone to Denel, in our own universities, which would then naturally attract Chinese co-development efforts? Such long term national-level strategic efforts would be much safer than trusting in short term corporate relations.
1. Assuming the PL-15 makes it for export, we don’t know when it will be available. I am guessing it will be around when the FC-31 is available off-the-shelf – mid to late-2020s? Meanwhile, Denel conducted the Marlin’s ground-to-air tests in Fall 2015, and is planning for air-to-air tests sometime late this year. We could potentially get the Marlin earlier.
3. I can’t argue against 3 because I know full well Pakistan’s lack of foreign relations ability. No contract (defence, economic, political, etc) could be honoured without strong foreign relations currency. In this case I’ll have to concede the entire idea because the Pakistani establishment is lacklustre, rendering this entire front moot. But in the case that it isn’t (hopefully one day), I do think Pakistan can sustain a venture with Denel, even against Indian pressure. India had tried that trick with Denel in the late 2000s, and the end result was Denel getting thrown out on corruption charges (later found to be weak by Indian courts). There’s a disincentive, and it’d be up to Pakistan to work in ways (e.g. deepening roots within South Africa via defence, economic, social, etc ties) to maintain that disincentive. The fact that it can’t actually puts a lot of things under question, including our incentive for R&D with the help of China. I think the environment today will steer us towards more off-the-shelf purchases, and less so towards local licensed production, much less more riskier development initiatives.
Why can’t we generate additional funds to invest in Pakistani universities? I think cooperation with Denel (and other vendors throughout the world) should go in parallel with Pakistan’s R&D base, with an attempt to cause productive synchronization. IMHO that entire avenue at its core rests on sincere and competent leadership, which we don’t have, which will basically mean we’re going to have to wait for PL-15.
Collaboration in R&D can’t be bought. If your engineers can’t keep up in the labs, then they’re just dead weight, annoying everyone else. Actual scientists aren’t impressed, unless you can actually do the work… And they’re the ones who you have to work with on such projects.
This is why Russia told India to take a back-seat with the PAK-FA. This is also why the French weren’t interested in holding India’s hand with the Rafale local production. Both were idiotic demands by a brat, who thinks he’s rich with a $6K per-capita GDP, and not much in terms of in-house scientific or engineering capability. At least the Russians were polite about it, the French just told em to shut up, pay up, or get lost. If you’re not capable of operating at a high level, but still insist like a child to play with the big boys, it’s just embarrassing for everyone.
This is why actual collaboration is always done between equals e.g. the Eurofighter. British and German scientists can actually collaborate. Russian and Indians, or Pakistanis and Chinese, can’t yet. It’s not because the Russians and Chinese don’t want to collaborate. In most things (outside of the super classified) they’d love the help. But the other side has to be capable of working at their level…
So the solution for Pakistan is to get its act together, invest in its universities. Pull itself up from it’s bootstraps, so that it can actually collaborate at a high level. And once we do that, trust me, we’d be able to do much better than Denel as a partner… They’re small-timers man, we should aim way higher.
india stands nowhere in developing 5th gen aeronautical technology as its still not able to master 4th gen doppler radar,1st gen aesa radar with 700-800 T/R modules and basic 90KW turbofan engine.
Despite india having 3-4 decade head start over pakistan it is nowhere on defence technology map especially in.aeronautical engineering.
1. Drdo wants hands on some technology and accelerated technical consultancy from Russian & french while israel rarely support drdo.
Both these countries : russia and france support minimal tech consultation if drdo is able to figure out most problems.
say for eg french company ll help Drdl on radar and optronixs but in order to be able to get that support ; drdo labs have to develop and find solution for other 90%problem.
2. Most tot from France and russia have come after they realise that drdo labs hve reached threshold in that technology.
For eg india is requesting russia for last 10 yrs to help them on liquid fuel ramjet of Brahmos which are more advanced as compared to solid ramjet technology.
Russia have refused any tech consultancy and TOT.
Currently drdo developed prototype LFRJ liquid fuel ramjet r 20% specific fuel impulse as compared to Russian.
But the time drdo makes at par engine u ll see russia asking india to take tot of their LFRJ tech.
3. rafale Mmrca bid failed bcoz of guarantee which india wanted from dassault which finally penalised them for any delay in Hal production.
Lately the price for full TOT 126 rafale had crossed 30bil $.
India has made good bargain with dassault on rafale.
Dassault have to invest 3bill $ on offset which ll help indian pvt sector absorb stealth,paint coating,radar and mica missile tech.
Drdo also ll b able to get more tech consultancy in 4-4+ gen technology from French engineers on optronics,fire control system for
aesa radar,turbofan enginering where drdo is struggling to make alloy that can withstand 1700 degree Celsius.
TOT in defence industry is strictly made for countries that are working on technology.
once india works toward development of 5th gen AMCA from 2020 we ll see many consultancy from French but india or be it any country can’t expect for 100% tot of any technology.
I hope we get the leadership to make that possible, soon.
It won’t be soon, even if we get that leadership today. As MT said, even India which has decades of advantage over Pakistan, doesn’t get to collaborate on the things it wants today, and even transfer of tech is only an option for those who already achieve a certain measure of ability in these fields… and Pakistan isn’t anywhere near the required level for anything truly advanced.
Aeronautical-anything is just a very tough field in general. Even the most basic things like wind-tunnel testing is the application of non-linear fluid dynamics, aka “Chaos theory,” which is one of the most mathematically complex fields of physics… In order to truly collaborate with another party, you need to offer them something they don’t already have… or at least share the workload in something they do…. What area of physics and engineering can we offer Chinese engineers anything? Nothing, zero. So even if we get the leadership to start on this road today, it’ll take DECADES before we generate enough intellectual capital… Maybe we have a few brilliant minds, but for these projects you need entire teams, not individuals…
We need to start sponsoring masses of physics and engineering students on student visas to MIT, Caltech etc. That’s what China has been doing. Once they get their docs and post-docs, they will come back and start teaching local professors, who will then fuel enough local intellectual capital, over time, that with enough hard work, and enough MILLIONS of dollars invested in labs and infrastructure, we’ll have a shot at generating those required teams of scientists… But it won’t be “soon”….
Keep in mind, that all of this will have to be balanced with everything else, you need dams, hospitals, agriculture etc. Which is why advanced R&D is a thing that takes place in advanced societies, where they already have the basic things covered…
That is the price we pay for screwing up our development for half a century after independence… Interestingly, this is how the concept of “tawbah” works. It takes time to right the wrongs of your past, and patience and a lot of hard work… It’s never “soon” but it’s never impossible either…
What are you expecting from this leadership and nation. Half of the people are unable to make a difference between a proven corrupt political families and the need for alternative leadership. The other half has reconciled, including the military.
You say one word against politicians and jayalas come fighting. That is the level the national intelligence has drooped to.
This country is only trying to make both ends meet for the time it has. You are going thru a slow death. Forget R&D, your existence is at stake.
Wait for another Jinnah by a miracle, or wait for an end.
I expect this nation to rediscover its thesis statement, as written by Iqbal. This is the only nation in the world that was created on the basis of Islam. Sure that thesis was sidelined and distorted by the many vested interests which hate it, the mullahs and the secularists. But when we actually rediscover it, and start following actual Quranic Islam, I expect this nation to liberate the world, and take humanity to the stars, in Star Trek like fashion. That’s what I expect from this nation, because that was its thesis.
I think we can all agree we all expect this. Everything you write are words in gold. And then, there is reality.
Pakistan has no reason for existence if the very purpose of its creation is not established in it in true reflection of two nation theory.
Unfortunately, there’s been a 70 year waiting time. There is no treatment in sight.
What you write was in grasp when the nation was born. Today it is a light year away. There actually will be a miracle needed to restore the country to its roots.
Your priority is to rid this country of the cancer of corrupt leadership eating it. Today raheel sharif has done what no one did before by firing 12 serving army officers. I hope the next step is on the corrupt political elite.
You cannot advance anywhere as long as Sharif and Bhutto family remains connected to this country.
I don’t believe in “miracles.” Pakistan wasn’t a “miracle.” It was hard work, persistence and good strategy, against all odds. No mommy/messiah is gonna come down from the sky to save us. The “treatment” was revealed 1400 years ago. And if it takes another 1400 for us to understand, accept and implement it, so what? Humanity’s already spent thousands of years in the darkness “clinging to the earth”, whats a few more?
You don’t have 1400 years. Please wake up.
This is not 1200 BC.
70 years have given you enough indications of what is to come and what has come in 71.
Call it whatever, anything that puts this country on the track won’t be less than a miracle.
Ok dude, good luck with your miracles, metaphorical or otherwise. I have work to do.
Hope you took away something also.
There’s thousand’s Pakistanis working everyday. And they do their jobs best. Why is it all still crumbling apart? Take that thought with you.
When you say “reach for the stars” and humanity has spent years in darkness “clinging to the Earth” are you suggesting aspire to actually reach the stars and with that aim create an environment of learning that can take mankind there or do you simply mean in a more down to Earth sense of “aiming high”. Either is great. Just wish to know in what sense do you mean it. Almost every child is fascinated with the stars (if they can still see many depending on where they live). That fascination stays for life with some us (I am one such!). I remember looking up in a clear night once in Azad Kashmir over 20 years ago. My mind was blown away by the view! Clusters and clusters of stars everywhere! I so wish Pakistan was a spacefaring nation actually aiming for the stars in line with both Quranic inspiration and Iqbal’s vision too. But then I wake up from the dream and Jigsawwian reality sinks in of where Pakistan is stood today and where it aught to be!
i mean it literally… humanity is a space faring species able to conquer the forces of nature through science. the stars are within our reach, if we just get our act together… thats the Islam of the Quran, on which Pak was founded.
“Once they get their docs and post-docs, they will come back and start teaching local professors”. But the question is, will they come back? And if they do, will they stay? This level of qualification at the institutes you mention will open up the World to them. Patriotism in itself might not be motivation enough for many to forego the life that awaits them abroad. Pakistan would ideally want the very best to return and those will likely be the least to do so.
Abdus Salam came back, and he has stuff named after him all over the world, as well as in textbooks. The complaints I’ve heard from the ones who stay, are that Pakistan isn’t even interested in keeping them… But in this scenario, like China, Pakistan would be actively trying to improve itself (which it isn’t right now) so many of them will come back.
Yes Abdus Salam came back and what a hero’s treatment dished out to him by much of the Pakistani population! Embroiled in “aqeedah” woes and the word “Muslim” removed from his gravestone. But hopefully many will return and Pakistani people will embrace of them regardless of their faith background.
Smart people dont care about what the dumb think… Salam did his part, so will the rest. We need to set up the environment which allows them to do their job.
But Salam DID care. He was very hurt and upset. I agree the right environment of smart people should enable each individual to perform to full potential but educated professionals returning to Pakistan will largely do it for the love of the nation and if the nation does not return the love because of personal, subjective things like the “wrong” aqeedah of course it hurts. It would me!
He cared about the people, not their irrationality. All people who try to do good in the current systems face resistance, if they don’t they’re not not doing it right.
Truely explained the way term defence tot is misunderstood among masses.
Indian drdo have almost nill collaboration with denel while some indian pvt sector look to grab their tech at cheap valuations
Denel A darter may have 80-100g manouverability with decent turbofan nd brazilian seeker but indian institutions developed better turbofan over last decade with larger range while govt is investing 1bill $ building new fabricating plant for seekers,optronics and powerful gallium nitrate chips to be reqd in 5th gen aesa radars.
Indian govt sector ll be at par with brazilian and south african companies by turn of this decade with 3-4 times more r&d investment growing yrly at 15%.
Embraer is only something which is state of art even ahead of cheeni airlines given indian gov barely invest few hundred crores in civilian aviation development
On your point 3, just what is wrong with harnessing jinn power to generate electricity? We have been seeing the result government’s human effort for close to 10 years. With the highest per sq. meter jinn population density in Pakistan, I would be inclined to give the poor guys a chance. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no way implying we simply let jinns take the jobs that would otherwise go to humans but if they can generate electricity then the turnaround in the economy will create jobs for humans too. I’m also against “capturing” them. That would be a violation of basic jinn rights. They should be enticed with generous incentives of 5 daily meals of cow dung and their favourite food, bones. Such a scheme will also lure them away from their favourite activity of possessing humans and creating illnesses. Win win situation for all.
For your information, Burraq unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and Barq laser-guided air-to-ground missile have indigenous developed by Pakistan and they haven’t imported. Besides, Pakistan’s military modernization depends upon the evolving nature of threat primarily originating from India. Pakistan spends very low in defense and according to the SIPRI reports Pakistan is not even top 15 most military spending countries. However India ranks 6th in the list. Pakistan can go for more advanced war-tech but it will depend on its economic growth. Yet, it will leave no stone un-turned to defend Pakistan from any threat.
burraq is cheap version of CH3:and barraq is another cheen Laser guided missile
pakistan imports most nuke reactors components,shaheen,cruise missile system under table from china which aren’t included in SIPRI report.
by the way pak import more % of weapon of its total budget as compared to india.
I wonder why there is no Pakistan in the list though India is and Pakistan is not among top 15 even.
pak is in top 15. see again. china too ranked top 4 in importing weapon
The writer forgot to mention here that the Military Modernization in India is more harming than what Pakistan is doing in following the footprints to live as a recognized state in the region. All the developments that Pakistan has made is to survive rather than making any competition. and the drone are indegineuously developed.
nescom can’t wind tunnel a single drone.
burraq is CH3 export version
Dont worry, nescom doesn’t have to show off its supersonic wind tunnel to prove its point. Things that area reality, will not just disapear with ur denial… Modi toady
It cant design shaheen or babur or raad which r cheeni and south african in origin
Well raad is Pakistani reason why its a very unique design.
But not to worry, rest of these cheeni weapons are good enough to send hindus to their chitta
raad is variant of mupsow designed built by denel dynamics south Africa.
Source: Jane defence
Reply once u dumb head. Raad has nothing in common with what ever fantasy world mupsow that has not even seen the daylight. As of ur fantasy of tracking raad with satellite’s. If amerixans and russians are yet to produce such satellites with radars, i feel too comfortable with ur childish assertion of tracking raad with satellites, and that too of INDIAN make. What a joke. First make sure ur coast guards have binoculars to track boats loaded with mujahideen ….. U make ne laugh at times hindu scum
usa have space based infrared system to track all unwanted flying object .
Moron india is launching final gps satellite in April end.
india have 2 satellite with less than 1meter resolution.
Those punjabi jihadi die daily crossing borders.
indian spy satellite ll be used to track all punjabi army trained wahabi terrorist who ll be blessed with 720 virgins once they dare infiltrate
Hahahha ur really so indoctrinated by raw… Ur aerostat are not designed to track stealthy cruise missiles DH, they are l band radars, for long range large rcs detection. Americans produced them for border management…. Chooray
When pakistani wahabi shia army will call out Allah Akbar, ur hindu army will start pissing. They r good for bollywood only… Mor kuwassa
Indian astrosat radars latest version Nakshatra is based on miniaturisation El-M/2075 awacs which can detect objects of rcs0.1sq meter as far as 200km.
Drdo got the technology in return of hypersonic drag technology given to israel
Well they will get their reward, wonder what a hindu scum lije u wull get when ur chitta is burned…. Do u even realize life after dearh unless u believe in being reborn as an animal
U can send 1000 navigational satellites. They are no good against raad. No country has rhat tracking capability so far. Reason why stealth cruise missiles are the choice of weapons u nincompoop
calling aluminium built , composite less, fugly looking south African made substandard raad stealthy is only possible for madrassa grad
raad ll be one of worse alcm with rcs of more than 0.5 meter square.
Nakshatra aerostat based on EL-M/2075 can detect object as small as 0.1 meter sq.
India Isro MOTR radar can track a ping pong ball as far as 900 km
but those long range tracking radar r inhibited by earth cross section making them only suitable to detect ballistic missile.
Raad is sub sonic junk and they ll be detected by simply coastal radars , sensors and future IR satellites aided by dozns of aerostat radar.
India ll also have 10 km laser weapons as it had currently tested 2-3km range laser gun to burn electronic circuit of UAV.
pak only problem is in capabilities to develop its own. How long ll cheen and other company such as denel ll support u as india invest more on r&d nd ll close gap with cheen.
u guys cant even make your nuke reactors for weapons. all ur plutonium processing and uranium enrichment reactors use majority cheeni maal.
IHS Janes further says that the Ra’ad is the “extension” of the existing relationship with South Africa’s Denel (formerly Kentron) where they joined hands in the development of advanced weapons. It also says that Ra’ad resembles South African MUltiPurpose StandOff Weapon (MUPSOW)/ Torgos.
Air weapon complex has designed it with engine of tomahawk. Bow suck this up or open ur legs to janes info… Ur choice …. Better ask ukrainians to give u more of KH cruise missiles so u cud fly nirbhay successfully
babur is rip off ukrainean KH missile which china got from ukrainean in 90s
I am being very honest with u but u r a stubborn fool who fails to believe.
Modi toady, i am not saying babur is indegenous as very proudly u boast about ur stolen indian weapons tech, but the 7 odd tomohawks that crashed almost intact in 1998 found its way to pak and maybe to china r&d facilities.
Reason why babur is so successful and feared by indian defence establishment.
The truth is, its a bad ass weapon… Better hurryup and ask Ukrainians or russians to give u their cheap tech ASAP b4 its too late
now u wagging ur tail once I exposed u.
nirbhay share no similarities with ukrainean junk and russia won’t even sell us Brahmos tech so expecting them to help on nirvhay is churlish.
drdo have taken decade for nirbhay to completion. next 2 test ll involve dive test & second one ll have iir seeker to home onto moving target.
Those who develop their tech frkmr scratch face multiple failures during development but such is inability of pak nescom assemblers that they can’t turn babur into SLCM or ALCm while drdo is making all 3 version from same basic nirbhay
Oh u dumb head. Converting babur into alcm. Are u some dumb shit who doesnt understand a word. Bozo, raad is a better verion of alcm than babur. It uses same engine but with stealthy design. U dick head will understand oy if u c same shale up in air. NINCOMPOOP, RAAD IS AN ALCM. TIME TO WAKE UP NOW. Range difference is because of weight of raad if more fuel is added. Once there is a bigger platform, adding range to raad is no big deal.
Ur nirbhay or what ever shit is, is a cheap 20 year old non stealthy design of Ukrainian or russian missile bought off the shelf. Failures are beacause ur r&d sucks under non martial hindu minds. Just buy it.. U guys are pathetic failures
Ra’ad is stealthy made from alum container from substandard mupsow.
only a dubos ll find that junk stealthy
. . and ur DRDO is the epitome of excellence beyond comprehension. Hahahahaha… So how much raise are u getting from ur raw master on this statement. 10 aana.
Yup, so now our engineers are so dumb that they have asked denel to integrate some cheeni system. OK…. ANYTHING ELSE.
That reminds me of mother india spreading its legs to gain access for tech ranging from simple guns and shells to space program and satellites. And its been going on since 1947.
And i would rather suggest u to read about international views on pak missile and nuclear programme, only then u MAY comprehend its superiority over ur INDIAN INDEGINOUS shitty products on display
Jane defence have information on babur and raad being cheeni &denel made.
ARMSCONTROL WONK :top cited journal on nuclear & missile proliferation;
another source from norbeet bruggr who has most comprehensive info on missile and rocket engine.
Source of article:” The striking similarity of some Chinese and Pakistani solid fuel missiles
DF-11, DF-15, DF-16, DF-25 (?) as well as Ghaznavi, Shaheen-1, Shaheen-2 & 3″
by >Norbert Brügge, Germany.
Well pak introduced shaheen2 in 2004 but it took them 12yrs to fix 70era jet vanes tech.
I don’t hear of any country using jet vanes in ballistic missiles
Hong Kong journal published cheeni engg presence in helping pak fix m18/shaheen2.
india used secondary injection thrust vectoring control in agni1 and it switched over to flex nozzle 3d thrust vectoring from agni2.
ok just reply what components of shaheen2 is made by pak??
I ll say nothing apart from maraging steel and fuel.
As i said , mother of all information. Now jerk off
Who is exposed, u blackee scum. From day one i have maintained that babur is a spin off of tomahawks, but u DH wud bring in ur own stinky thoughts in it. Maybe it too hard for u to absord that babur is the result of a superior american tech and nit a result kf cheap, crude russian tech weapins like u indians have , especially ur another blunder nirbhay.
And, oh boy has AWC done a tremendous job of producing stealthy raad and integrating it with JF. I mean, its so frustrating for u hindus to know that pak has an answer to every indian imported tech and strategies.
Accoring to the words of a defence strategist, indians are undergoing a third period of depression and frustration. Cold start strategy in cold storage now. This was preceded by 2001 deployment which indian tax payers paid 7 billion $ and then Bombay attack by kashmiri mujahideen when indians failed to materualize its threat of retaliation after getting no assurance from IAF of curbing PAF retaliation. What a country of losers.
kamra is struggling to integrate raad with junk fighter17
we know capabilities of pak aeronautical industry.
we know what skills u have..
u r begging cheeni to help u change most trivial fuselage design for integration of raad.
pak can’t make a moped so we know how stealthily are those aluminum fugly CM
Babur is based on Kh-55SM/Korshun LACM, whose detailed production engineering data packages were bought from Kiev by 2001 which had by then been developed by Ukraine’s Dnipropetrovsk-based Yuzhnoye State Design Bureau. The operation involved Pakistan’s famous A.Q. Khan. In early 2005, flight-tests of a variant of the DH-10A, having a range of 600km and equipped with a fibre-optic gyro coupled to an indigenously developed Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation (DSMAC) for mid-course navigation and terminal-homing system. This missile was later to become the 500km-range Babur, while its 280km-range anti-ship variant, incorporating an active radar seeker with 40km range for anti-ship strike, was designated as the C-602/YJ-62 and offered for sale worldwide since September 2005 by CPMIEC. China has supplied Pakistan’s NESCOM with the jigs, lathes and moulding/machining/milling tooling required for fabricating the LACM’s sub-assemblies. A 1995 Russian document suggested a complete production facility had been transferred to Shanghai, for the development of a nuclear-armed cruise missile. Originally it was thought that this was based on the 300 km-range Raduga Kh-15 (AS-16 ‘Kickback’), but it now appears that it was the Kh-55 that was transferred to China
pak punjabi jihadi are involved in cross border terrorism.
They wer facilitated by pak arny terrorist & us/india/uk have proof of it.
it ll be used to brand pak as terrorist state after us vacates from Afghanistan
india recently tested its cold start doctrine: shatrujeet in thar desert.
Google ll help u munna
How u have changed ur tklic. Interesting.
Now i to enjy my weekend with friends and family. I will catch with u when i am getting bored. Meanwhile kindly wash toilets of ur slum. Its getting stinky
world economy is gloomy but pak economy is in doldrums.
u ll b bankrupt as u can’t pay back debt next yr
Carrosat 2C : Launch date》May 2016
The 690-kilogram dual-use satellite is equipped with a Panchromatic Camera and a high-resolution multi-spectral instrument. This camera will have a resolution of 0.65 metres which is an improvement over the 0.8 metre camera sent on earlier missions. The new camera onboard the mission, can not only click high resolution pictures of disputed border and coastal areas, but can also record videos of sensitive targets from space, compress it, and relay it back to Earth.
Oh chooray, gps or navigation satellites are for providing navigational facilities and multi spectral instryments are meant fof surveullance of ground based targets, not for tracking realtime airbornes stealthy cruidd missile. If any INDIAN can make this illiterate dick head understand… Modi toady indeed.
Stop waisting my time mor kuwasssa
I m just giving u diff example to prove capabilities of indian space research
cartosat is for Panchromatic and multispectral surveillance while irnss is for regional navigation
Read again: cartosat ll monitor pak missile launching facilities. In future isro ll have dozen satellites in IR region to scan through any mobile launchers
isro ll launch 16 satellite from 2017.
it has 3 launchpad and 2SLV integration facilities
By 2020 I can bet that isro ll be working on space based missile tracking system
CHENNAI: India is slated to put into orbit its seventh and final navigation satellite on April 28, thereby having its full satellite navigation system up in the sky, said a senior space agency official.
“The launch of India’s seventh and the final in the series of satellites will be on April 28 afternoon. The IRNSS-1G (Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System-1G) will be put into orbit by our rocket Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV),” K.Sivan, director, Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), told IANS over phone on Tuesday.
The PSLV rocket will blast off after 12 noon on April 28 from India’s spaceport at Sriharikota in Andhra Pradesh, around 80 km from here.
Till date, India has launched six regional navigational satellites (IRNSS-1A, 1B, 1C, ID, 1E and 1F) as part of a constellation of seven satellites to provide accurate position information service to users across the country and the region, extending up to an area of 1,500 km.
Though the full system comprises nine satellites — seven in orbit and two on the ground as stand-by, the navigation services could be made operational with four satellites, ISRO officials had said earlier.
Each satellite costs about Rs.150 crore while the PSLV-XL version rocket costs about Rs.130 crore. The seven rockets would entail an outlay of about Rs.910 crore.
The first satellite, IRNSS-1A, was launched in July 2013, the second in April 2014, the third on October 2014, the fourth in March 2015, and the fifth and sixth on January 20 and March 10 this year.
Once the regional navigation system is in place, India need not be dependent on other platforms.
The IRNSS is similar to the global positioning system (GPS) of the US (24 satellites), Glonass of Russia, and Galileo of Europe as well as China’s Beidou.
While GPS and Glonass are fully functional global systems, the Chinese and the Japanese systems are offering regional coverage and Europe’s Galileo is yet to be operational.
The IRNSS will provide two types of services — standard positioning service and restricted service. The former is provided to all users and the latter is an encrypted service for authorised users.
Meanwhile ISRO is in the process of developing the front-end radio frequency chips for the satellite navigation system. The initial version is expected to be ready this year, ISRO chairman AS Kiran Kumar told IANS earlier.
indian satellite ll track them live.
read about cartosat latest launch.
1. Multi spectral resolution
2. 0.6 m resolution
3. swath of 96 km squt
4. live video
they ll b able to track nd those cheeni maal won’t b allowed to cross border
nescom haven’t published any patent so their records speak for r&d capabilities