According to IHS Jane’s, Nigeria has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Pakistan for the purchase of an undisclosed number of JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighters. The contract is expected to be inked in November in Pakistan during the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi.
Notes, Comments & Analysis:
Reports of a firm order emerged in January when a Nigerian newspaper, Punch, reported that $35 million U.S. had been allocated in the annual budget for three JF-17s and 10 Super Mushshak basic trainers for the Nigerian Air Force (NAF), the latter was officially finalized in June.
Negotiations between Nigeria and Pakistan likely began at the end of 2014, when the NAF had formally expressed interest in the JF-17. During IDEAS 2014, it was reported that the NAF could ultimately procure 25-40 JF-17s. While official numbers were not disclosed, it is likely that the NAF’s total order will not be as large given that it has numerous close air support (CAS) platforms in the acquisition pipeline, such as the Mi-35M assault helicopter and A-29 Super Tucano (which is still awaiting U.S. approval).
Considering that the main operational focus of the NAF at this time is counterinsurgency (COIN), it is likely that the NAF’s JF-17s will be configured for the strike role. Nigeria’s fruitful defence ties with China should enable it to procure a range of precision-guided munitions (PGM), such as the LT-series of laser-guided bombs. It is possible that Pakistan may seek to export domestically produced PGMs as well, such as the Global Industrial Defence Solutions (GIDS) Range Extension Kit (REK).
In its air defence configuration, the JF-17 would also imbue the NAF with relatively potent capabilities (especially if it can secure the SD-10 active radar-guided air-to-air missile). Among Nigeria’s immediate neighbours, only Chad possesses a modern fighter platform – i.e. the MiG-29 Fulcrum. However, it is not known how well these fighters are armed in terms of modern air-to-air munitions.
Once the JF-17 joins a couple of other airforces and they are happy with it then more countries will have the confidence to place orders for it.
JF-17 started off as a light fighter but will become a medium fighter with the passage of time.
PAC needs to focus on quality, reliability, value, continous improvements and listen to its potential customers in terms of their needs and the sales will take care of themselves
You should forward such request to Chinese company who does all development for Jf17
We shouldn’t be celebrating this deal. I’m actually hoping it doesn’t go through… Now that Pakistan is an arms producer, it should develop and abide by an ethical (Quranic) code when considering who to sell arms to. We can’t just start feeding weapons to any state out of a sociopathic desperation to sell arms. I know Nigeria is fighting the Boko Haram, which are a cancerous disease. But at the same time, the Nigerian government isn’t exactly a ‘white knight,’ its corrupt security forces and establishment are very oppressive, and I don’t want ‘Made in Pakistan’ arms and ammunition being used by oppressors.
Are you Crazy ? How do you feel when USA does not provide F-16’s to Pakistan.
Grow up buddy
Yes, I’m crazy, so stop talking to a crazy person.
He is right. Live and deal in the light of Sharia. Don’t sell to oppressor.if Nigerian are then Pakistan has to think abt that.
SHARIA ? First apply sharia law in your own house. Oppressor ? It is BOKO HARAM which is oppressor !
How about using “Made in Pakistan” arms as a leverage to encourage these countries’ governments to be less oppressive? Kill two birds with one stone effectively. Achieve the sales but link them to evidence of improved conduct for on-going future support. A workable idea do you think?
Nope. You don’t give a firearms licence to a person who has not demonstrated safe handling (in Canada at least), and you shouldn’t give arms to a nation BEFORE they’ve demonstrated restraint and proper use of authority. Suppose you sell to said country and in the time it takes your leverage to kick in, your sold arms have taken thousands of innocent lives…. But hey, you “achieved your sale” and your levers have also taken effect (assuming they actually kick in at all)… But what about those (potential) thousands your arms have killed in the meantime? Besides, it’s just wrong on principle. Oppressive states should not be sold arms, period. There are many other SANE ways to put leverage on such oppressors without selling them arms.
Hmmm, a difficult one this. Would the JF-17 conceivably be used for anything other than fighting Boko Haram? Not selling arms to oppressive states “period” is an admirable principled stance but which is less desirable of the two – supply JF-17 to Nigeria or deny them the enhanced capacity to fight Boko Haram? I ought to have said the conditions of use should be applied BEFORE the sale to prevent the potential loss of innocent lives. Of course, as you point out, it could be too late to think of leverage post sale.
I might possibly be visiting Nigeria in the near future (I keep managing to avoid it so far). Would be ideal time to get the “flavour” of things out there.
I don’t think there’s any difficulty here. Let’s do the math. We know that the Nigerian government hasn’t demonstrated a proper capacity to use force even with it’s own population, let alone the enemy’s. Therefore, is it not more probable that they will use these jets to bomb indiscriminately and create more chaos? Of course it is; hence, selling these jets is the wrong move. As I said already “There are many other SANE ways to put leverage on such oppressors without selling them arms.” Also, keep in mind that the ones who sold these jets didn’t care about applying any “leverage” so your arguing a moot point to begin with.
The “principled stance” is always the right stance for a good reason: It is the most practical, logical and beneficial in the long run. Anyways, stay safe in Nigeria when you travel and let us know what you find.
To be honest, if I can avoid visiting Nigeria I will. I have visited several other West African countries and I am familiar with what I can expect to find, lol. First, an intense heat wave will hit me, air conditioners will be down. Some ill-fitting uniformed man will swiftly snatch the passport out my hand, find fault with my documents, ask how much cash I have with me. A few other “officials” will join him and together the “interrogation” will begin. After much arguing they will reluctantly let me go but not without saying something like, “you are a very, very bad man” as I walk away. Next, a brief tussle with taxi drivers will follow. After a bumpy drive I will eventually reach my destination and think, “Thank God the first ‘test’ is over!”. Yes, I know the script very well by now.
Abdul Rashid, can’t you smell your own garbage as it stinks in your living room? Nigerians too would not be interested in visiting your Pakistan….Osama Bin Laden was found living like a Sheik in your backyard. LOL.
Nigeria does not need Pakistani investment, it is Pakistan that needs Nigeria’s oil and gas dollars, that is why your top military generals fly to Nigeria since 2012 to market JF-17 Thunder to those Nigerians.
American, European, Chinese, Russian, Japanese investors fly into Nigeria daily to invest and establish companies, the same Nigeria that you a Pakistani is saying you are too good to visit.
Do I need to remind you that you are citizen of an overpopulated third world country that begs America for dollars in aid? You are blind to your own mess….LOL
Augustine, several incorrect assumptions in your response: (1) I am not a citizen or a resident of Pakistan and I have spent very little time in the country. From this initial incorrect assumption several more follow, (2) “Your generals”, (3) “Your mess”, etc, etc. I am however an ethnic Kashmiri/Punjabi and have an affection for Pakistan and wish it all the best and for that matter wish Nigeria all the best too.
I have visited several West African countries and my experience at the airports has always without exception been very bad. It does not help my cause that I steadfastly refuse to part with my hard-earned cash because I do not wish to help promote a culture of corruption. I have yet to visit Nigeria myself but I have many colleagues who have visited it and they do not have much positive to say of their experience AT THE AIRPORT or with dealing with those in authority. Of course all this puts me off visiting unless I absolutely have to. With Nigeria, as has been the case with the other West African countries I have visited, I’m sure I would meet many great people and leave with many fond memories of the people and the culture I experience but I shy away from the mistreatment dished out at the airports. I am simply not used to it. Now the very same may well be true of Pakistani airports. In that case too I would not shy away from commenting on the negative experience. The subject matter between me and Mohsin E at the time was Nigeria, not Pakistan.
FYI, The Quwa Admin policy on personal insults to other users is zero tolerance and I would normally delete or edit out the offending words directed at another. However, since this is against me, I have left your reply posted and unedited. No hard feelings here. I hope none on your side either.
Abdul Rashid, any words that may be unpleasant I have edited off my comment.
Every country has big problems, the Ameicans are busy killing their own citizen as policemen shoot the black Americans for target practice on the streets.
Human rights are violated everywhere, Canadian police plotted the torture of an Egyptian-Canadian man by sending him to Syrian police for interrogation and toture. Canada discriminates against native aborigines, Australia does the same.
Corrupt airport officials is a third world symbol, corrupt policemen and corrupt drug law enforcement agents are many in America, a British policeman took bribe in a case involving a Nigerian politician in London.
Every country has it’s own dirty side, that is why I try to avoid country bashing on internet forums. I live in the USA and I am an American citizen, I know how many times a man will walk into a public place and shoot a hundred bullets into the bellies of innocent Americans, yet people all over the world still visit America and millions of Asians, Africans, East Europeans are begging to become American citizens every day !
All countries are dirty one way or the other. No hard feelings. Cheers.
Augustine, thanks for the clarification and the self-moderation of your comment.
Corruption wherever it exists in any shape or form is wrong and should be condemned. To comment on corruption and it’s negative aspects is not country bashing per se. It is condemning the people who are corrupt many of who in-fact might themselves not be like that of their own choice but because they are trapped in a system that does not make it easy for them to behave differently. Normally when corruption exists at the top, its negative effects flow down and engulf many an innocent man.
Of course countries themselves are not corrupt, they are all equally beautiful in their own way, each with its own climate, scenery, heritage and culture. Each one presenting a unique experience to the visitor.
Principled policymaking is the marker of a mature and confident power. It takes a high level of calibre and vision to overcome the pragmatic lure (of short-term gains or “seeking leverage”). Unfortunately, a certain situation we are all too familiar with in Pakistan has pushed a lot of people to take up the lure instead of the higher (albeit tougher) path.
Just consider that the JF-17’s opening export clientele is to comprise of Myanmar and Nigeria. Interestingly, our side hasn’t come out in the open with speaking of Myanmar, but it is an open secret at this point.
Mosin E. you have zero knowledge of Nigeria except the western propaganda you read on internet.
Same America that calls Nigeria oppressive, same America calls Pakistan a secret supporter of terrorism….Osama Bin Ladin was found alive inside Pakistan.
How do you feel if the world calls Pakistan a terror state and sponsor of murderers? What do you know about Nigeria, do you live in Nigeria?
If Pakistan does not sell JF-17 to Nigeria, their country will buy Russian MiG-29 SMT or Chinese J-10 both jets are superior to your JF-17.
Nigeria is not an oppressor nation, they saved Liberia and Sierra Leone from civil war, they joined France to save Mali, joined UN to save Dafur Sudan, and some years ago fought and died trying to save Somalia.
Ignorant and poorly informed people like you should learn that truth is only half on internet, you need to travel to Nigeria and get the truth.
Niger Delta people get 13% of all Nigerian oil and gas revenue under derivation formula law, you can google it, plus extra monthly allocation of about 7% under allocation law from federation account. They have the smallest population in Nigeria but get the biggest money allocation every year in billions of dollars, yet they want more and more and more money, then they bomb oil pipelines to blackmail the Nigerian government to pay them more money. Their people are lazy and do not want to work, government gives them free education and overseas job/business training, yet they want more, they want monthly salary for men who refuse to work, but drink alcohol and smoke cigarette.
Those are the people you are supporting, shame on you !
Nigerian military had to defend the country from these Niger Delta greedy and violent militia men that kill innocent oil company workers and kidnap people for ransom payment.
Those are the people you support because your own type of sharia supports evil. Shame on you !
And the other shoe drops eh Mohsin?
Ok you’re clearly in a super-emotional mode right now, so nothing I will say is going to sink in. But just be aware that for every 1 source you can find to support your case, I can probably find 10 to support mine. I have access to JSTOR and I just did a quick search and found 407 papers just on “niger delta oppression” alone. Here’s just one of those papers (you need to login to JSTOR to access the entire article)
Resource control, revenue allocation and petroleum politics in Nigeria: the Niger Delta question
Paul S. Orogun
Vol. 75, No. 5 (2010), pp. 459-507
Sure, the situation is complicated, it always is. But for you to take such an elitist attitude of saying all the poor are just lazy, while the rich are just trying to do develop the region, strikes me as completely bonkers on the face of it. The real problems are corruption by the rich and powerful, no money gets to the poor, because the elites in those regions are in cahoots with the federal elites and also the multinationals, who all profit at the expense of the poor. Who then, obviously take up arms and turn to crime. You can’t just blame the poor for turning to the dark side after generations of oppression and exploitation.
Just realize this: when you say that everything the West says about the rest of the world is propaganda, but you accept all the criticism of the West by Westerners, that is hypocrisy. For example, I don’t reject charges that Pakistan has been harshly oppressive and unjust. I know the faults of my country. I don’t make excuses for them like you are doing for Nigeria. If you want to sweep all the bad Nigeria has done under the rug, that is your choice, but you will have a very hard time convincing anyone neutral of your POV, because the evidence on my side of the case is overwhelming, whereas you are mostly working on an emotional-defense.
Also, like I said, there is NO comparison between Nigeria and Pakistan on any metric. Pakistan is far ahead, on every scale, so please stop with these false equivalences.
Mohsin E, do you know why my argument is superior to yours? You know NOTHING about Nigeria from personal experience and fact finding investigation of real true situations from right inside Nigeria.
All you know is from internet google search from on your laptop in your bedroom 10,000 km far away from Nigeria ! You know nothing by personal experience inside Nigeria !
I lived inside that Niger Delta for over 10 years and over 20 years I lived in Nigeria, plus I worked for years in the Nigerian oil and gas industry that is based in the Niger Delta you have NEVER lived in since you were born !
I moved to America and now I see the outside world too.
The source you quote from your internet copy and paste research, can you prove he is telling rhe truth? Can you verify his claims to be true? Indians go on internet and claim they defeated Pakistan in all air wars of past years, is all the Indian claims true because it is posted on internet and me too can quote the web links as sources?
Your source is written by a Niger Delta citizen, you do not know because you are ignorant of reality of Nigeria. I know because I am far superior to you in knowlwdge about Nigeria. Why don’t you pick a source from Northern Nigeria as writer on same topic? Only fools hear one side of a story and make judgement, that is why in court of law both accuser and accused speak at court hearings.
The writer’s name is Orogun, you don’t know that is a Niger Delta tribal name. I know because I am 101 times more knowledgeable about Nigeria than you who only knows free internet copy and paste of stories you cannot verify as true or false. I laugh at your poor knowledge.
Next, both Nigeria and Pakistan are badly managed over populated third world countries. However, Nigeria is richer than Pakistan in natural resources, mineral wealth and all, Abuja is more beautiful than Islamabad, Lagos Island is more beautiful than Karachi.
Nigeria has a bigger GDP and dollar forex reserve than Pakistan. Both countries depend on China for technology, JF-17 is 90% Chinese technology. Nigeria builds space satellites, drones, MRAP, etc. Each country has it’s strength, stop hallucinating sir.
I am not making excuses for Nigeria, I am only saying Pakistan is as bad as Nigeria, so don’t use your internet forum to spit on Nigeria, we don’t do that to Pakistan on Nigerian internet forums, we respect other people. America accuses Pakistan of human rights violations same way America accuses Nigeria. I am trying to correct ignorance of people who make judgement based on internet information alone. If I want info on alleged Pakistani ‘atrocities’ in Kashmir or alleged Pakistani support of global terrorism as claimed by India and America that found Osama Bin Laden the murderer living happily inside Pakistan, I will ask for Pakistani government side of the story not just reading Indian opinions on internet and passing judgement, I am not a fool to do that.
Arguments about two struggling third world countries is a waste of time, millions of Pakistanis are running away from poverty in Pakistan and using their university degrees as taxi drivers on our streets in America. Don’t try paint Pakistan as superior to Nigeria, your university graduates are driving me around New York city in taxi cabs. Both countries are THIRD WORLD problematic.
The Pakistani government that is happy to do business with Nigeria are more intelligent than you. Instead of promoting trade with Africa’s biggest economy you are asking Pakistan to stop…LOL the Indians are laughing at how you want to ruin your own country, you aren’t so smart brother. LOL !!!!
Actually, your argument isn’t superior, it’s invalid. Your entire thesis is based on a logical fallacy i.e. “Argument from authority.” You’re basically telling me to disregard everything in peer-reviewed journals, and just take your word for it. Sorry, that’s not how it works.
I’m sure many non-Nigerian researchers and journalists who publish on Nigeria have visited the country and are probably way more familiar with it’s inner workings than you are, despite your personal experiences.
As for the metrics, of course Nigeria’s GDP is higher, because of the exploitative oil industry, but that is meaningless, the whole point is how is that wealth being used and distributed? The stats you should focus on are the GINI, HDI and Corruption indexes. Pakistan is ahead on all 3. Also, when it comes to the professionalism of its armed forces, there’s no question of Pakistan’s superiority, and this is actually what I was referring to in my replies to other members, not the economic metrics.
Anyways, I’m not going to spare any criticism of Nigeria when I criticize Pakistan most of all, most of the time. If that hurts your feelings, too bad. Grow up.
Ignorant Mohsin, I said your source is outdated, year 2010 containing 20 year old information that has been changed by new laws and developments in Nigeria, or are you blind? You are an internet copy and past commentator posting 2010 obsolete data in year 2016, I am superior to you with my year 2016 information on Nigeria. So learn to admit when you are defeated, mister copy and paste google poster….LOL.
Pakistan is building a bigger military than Nigeria because you are preparing for war with a superior India that is the 4th most powerful nation on earth. Nigeria does not face India as a threat, we face Boko Haram insurgency and Boko Haram has no tank, not to talk of a navy or air force. India has about 250 Su-30MKI and soon to have 36 Rafales, and later about 150 Sukhoi PAK FA Stealth fighter jets plus 2,000 T-90 tanks and an aircraft carrier….that is why Pakistan is forced to build a more powerful military than Nigeria, and Pakistan is sacrificing money to buy weapons while dozens of millions of Pakistanis live in hunger and poverty. Use common sense when you make comparison dude.
Nigeria has a bigger economy and more dollar cash reserves than Pakistan, does not matter if it is oil wealth, money is money and Nigeria is richer than Pakistan, so live with that fact and humble yourself. Visit Abuja and see paradise class on infrastructure plus the smart city computerised estates under construction, you won’t find that in the overpopulated Karachi.
Both Nigeria and Pakistan are poorly managed and corrupt 3rd world countries, Pakistan is corrupt, your university graduate taxi drivers are telling me that here in America. A thief is a thief, does not matter who steals more, both countries are corrupt.
The average American or European is equally afraid to visit both countries for tourism, that is because both are third world under achievers, your Pakistani brothers tell me that in the taxis on American streets.
If you say Pakistan should not sell JF-17 to Nigeria because sharia forbids it, then your sharia should forbib Pakistan from buying weapons and military technology from China which oppresses every religion including Islam, so you have no JF-17 and America won’ t sell more than 10 to 20 F-16 jets to you….then India will invade your country and colonize you, I wait to see how your sharia will protect you from a powerful Hindu nation without Pakistan getting weapons from China.
Stop China from helping Pakistani military because sharia does not allow business with China that oppresses Islamic religion, and you will see how India will colonize Pakistan in 30 days of easy war….you will become a Hindu by force or taste Indian Su-30 and Rafale missiles if you refuse.
Well, at least you’ve abandoned your argument from authority fallacy and are now focusing on the sources (although the ad hominem attacks won’t help you.) As for your concern, the following sources are all from 2016, as per your request (and this is just a few minutes of searching. I’m sure there’s a ton more where these came from.) The first one I already posted in another post, but I’ll post it again.
“But already aides to Mr. Leahy, a sponsor of a human rights law that prohibits the State Department and Pentagon from providing military assistance to foreign militaries with poor human rights records, have expressed concern. ‘We don’t have confidence in the Nigerians’ ability to use them in a manner that complies with the laws of war and doesn’t end up disproportionately harming civilians, nor in the capability of the U.S. government to monitor their use,” said Tim Rieser, a top Leahy aide.’ ” http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05…
“In Nigeria, capturing law enforcement abuse is so popular that people send in videos and photos taken from scenes of military brutality…”
“Nigerian soldiers, SSS brutalise journalists: “At approximately 1:45 a.m. soldiers and SSS agents stormed the hotel and demanded the whereabouts of our reporters,” Mr. Garrick said quoting witnesses. “They went from room to room dragging them out and brutalising them.””
“Nigeria’s military says some officers are selling arms and ammunition to Boko Haram, indicating the corruption bedeviling the country’s fight against the Islamic extremists continues despite government efforts to halt graft.”
“Army arrests soldiers, sets up probe panel over brutality of Makoko residents”
“Amnesty International is not the first to report on the unit’s brutality. In 2014, Nigerian newspaper, Vanguard, gave a similar report on SARS. In an article titled REVEALED! What goes on inside SARS walls, investigations by the Network On Police Reforms In Nigeria (NOPRIN) exposed shocking atrocities perpetrated by the special unit force, and how politicians and people of influence use them as a tool for victimisation, oppression and injustice.”
“We must ask ourselves this question why is it that while the process of dialogue and negotiation is been initiated, the draconian Nigerian state with is instruments of oppression and internal slavery attacked the creeks with high vehemence”
“But as the security agents intensified efforts to pick up the perpetrators of the act yesterday, several women trooped onto the East-West road leading to Bayelsa and Rivers States in protest against what was described as intimidation and indiscriminate arrests of the men by the soldiers.”
“He equally reminded the President that the arrest and detention of Nnamdi KANU, Lotachukwu Okoli and a host of others, as well as the killing, persecution, prosecution, mesmerization, suppression and oppression of Biafrans, cannot quench the agitation.”
etc. etc. etc.
Look here Mister Mohsin, I have not abandoned anything I said before, I am right, I am posting information and facts from over 20 years experience I had living inside Nigeria, but you have NEVER lived in Nigeria for 20 minutes and you are getting ALL your information from free internet copy and paste google searches…LOL.
My argument is original facts from inside Nigeria, your own arguments are opinions from one sided commentators, or foreigners who have never visited Nigeria, or people posting lies on internet for personal agenda and selfish purposes.
The false human right abuse on Boko Haram was done under the command of a Niger Delta chief of army staff, and he denied it, so how do you prove the accuser right when the accused denied it? Read Nigerian army denial of those American allegations on human rights on internet, stop google searching one side of a story, google the othsr side defending itself and post it, try show me how intelligent a Pakistani can be, you say you are smarter than those Nigerians….LOL.
Biafra group? LOL…Kanu wants to break Nigeria up demanding a soveriegn nation inside a democratic Nigeria, will any country allow that to happen? Nigerians have never voted to support Biafra break up, they fought against it in a civil war that cost 2 million lives, now you are defending Biafra, do you think at all?
Current Niger Delta militants agitation, they are criminals who kidnapp innocent oil workers, bomb oil pipelines to blackmail the Nigerian government to pay them more money for not working, I have repeated that again and again to your deaf ears, Nigeria pays them billions of dollars every year as royalty on oil, but they want more and more and more.
Now you ignorant fellow, you say Pakistan should not sell weapons to Nigeria, why is Pakistan buying weapons from America that violates human rights on their streets shooting black men for target practice, state of emergency ongoing now in Charlotte town as people riot against oppression, you cannot google that? Your computer broke down? Why is Pakistan buying American F-16 jets and missiles? Sharia allows you to do business with oppressor America but not with ‘oppresor’ Nigeria? Right? LOL
JF-17 jet is 90% Chinese technology, China oppresses it’s own people who practice religion because China is technically communist/aethist, so why is Pakistan doing weapons business joint venture with oppressive China? You cannot answer those simple questions, how smart are you? Only Nigeria is an ‘oppressor’? How smart are you? Your own sharia is better than that of millions of Pakistanis who see nothing wrong in selling weapons to Nigeria?
How intelligent are you, mister internet copy and paste logic….LOL
“…try show me how intelligent a Pakistani can be, you say you are smarter than those Nigerians”. Can you kindly point out where Mohsin said anything to that effect? I’d be interested to know.
This debate, whatever else it is, is not about Pakistan vs Nigeria. Disagree as much as you want with anyone of us, argue your case, share your opinion but refrain from personal attacks on individuals.
Abdul, it was Mohsin who started the claim of Pakistan is better than Nigeria, go back to his comments and see, I quote him below…
“Also, like I said, there is NO comparison between Nigeria and Pakistan on any metric. Pakistan is far ahead, on every scale, so please stop with these false equivalences.” – Moshin E.
Above is the claim of total superiority in all human and material aspects made by Mohsin E, Pakistan better than Nigeria in everything! LOL…what a claim! That is the provocation I responded to and asked him to show me how intelligent a Pakistani is. I have a right to defend Nigeria, I don’t care it is a Pakistani forum. I have said it two days ago that on Nigerian forums we DO NOT insult Pakistan or Pakistanis, we respect them. I expect same from a Pakistani forum or else I will be forced to return fire for fire, hey man, Nigerians are the most powerful and educated black people on this planet and we don’t take garbage thrown in our faces, not even from the Americans, we talk back in reciprocity, even if the insult is coming from whitemen in Europe, we don’t take it lightly, we fire back.
Semi-finally, there is no personal attack in my comments to Mohsin, I did not call him stüpïïd or anything, I said he should show me how intelligent a Pakistani is and that is because he claimed to be better than Nigerians, he started it, let him prove it.
Finally, I also told him he is not smart, because he does not follow principles of law and equity, he cherry picks internet sources and posts only one side of an argument, he posts the accuser’s story and ingnores the accused’s defences and denial of wrongdoing, he passes judgement like that and condemns the accused without hearing his side at all, so is Mohsin smart?
This is not a “Pakistani” forum as such. True, it is Pakistan-centric and Pakistan military gets the lion’s share of the discussion but the analysis presented here are objective, many countries are covered and all shades of opinions are welcomed. If this was not the case, I would not be a moderator here and you would not see the approval of comments that go against the mainstream Pakistani opinion.
Mohsin later clarified the specific metrics to which he was referring. There was no reference to the intelligence level of anybody. If anything, a country lagging in these metrics points to those in authority and running the country, not the general populace. Like you, I too have had some (indirect) link to the oil sector for some years. This has been the basis for my travels to West Africa and I have met many Africans and made friends. The people on the whole are friendly, hard-working, as intelligent as any other I have met on my travels and the countries themselves are resource-rich. Whatever is letting these countries down it is not the average man in the street. Having said that, I have not yet visited Ghana and Nigeria, I might do in future and these two countries are probably in a lot better shape than their neighbours.
Oh I get it. All my sources are biased because they disagree with your point of view and 20 years of experience… (…fallacy, again.) So lets look at YOUR source that you posted. This is what YOUR source says:
“The Nigerian Human Rights Commission has accused the military of using disproportionate force in Zaria, in the country’s north, where at least 380 Shiite Muslims were killed in 2015…. A judicial commission appointed by the Kaduna state government has released a list of names of those killed in December, and some civil society groups have demanded an independent investigation of the incident.”
Your source cites the NIGERIAN Human Rights Comission accusing the military of gross violations for this incident. In response, the only defense of the military in your own source, comes from the Nigerian military itself (no bias there, huh? lol) which defends itself by saying: “We have internal mechanisms to check human-rights violations.”…..
Seriously, are you kidding me? Is this is a joke? Or are you intentionally trying to destroy whatever was left of your own argument?
Here are other sources indicting the Nigerian military for this incident.
“Judicial panel indicts Nigerian Army General, others for Zaria massacre of Shiites…. The killings drew worldwide condemnations, and several investigative reports said hundreds of people were killed by government troops and secretly buried in a mass grave in Zaria, Kaduna State.”
“Mass slaughter of hundreds of men, women and children by soldiers in Zaria and the attempted cover-up of this crime demonstrates an utter contempt for human life and accountability, said Amnesty International as it publishes evidence gathered on the ground revealing how the Nigerian military burned people alive, razed buildings and dumped victims’ bodies in mass graves.”
Mohsin, try to be a bit smart, show me some intelligence, and impartiality in judgement.
Post both sides of every story, the Nigerian are denied the claims by the Human Rights Commission, how do you prove who is telling the truth? Can you verify both claims from your laptop in your bedroom? Do you know what intelligent thinking is?
Nigerian army side of story:
“The country’s director of defense information, Brigadier General Rabe Abubakar, told VOA he expects the charges to be deemed false. The accusations, he said, are unfair and regrettable.
“It’s unfortunate that they could come up with this kind of [accusation]. … The last time they made similar allegations against the Nigerian armed forces, eventually turned to be false,” he said.
Nigeria’s armed forces are responsible for ensuring “peaceful coexistence” and national stability, Abubakar said in an interview, and also ensuring that their actions are “enshrined” in the constitution.
“Whatever we do is for the best interest of this country,” the general said.
“We are constitutionally empowered to ensure total peace and security in our country,” he added, “and whatever actions that may have been exhibited by the force, I believe, is something which should be commended, not condemned.”
“We don’t have any issue with the human-rights group here in Nigeria,” he said, but claimed that the commission has never condemned the Boko Haram group’s repeated killing of innocent civilians.
“The small action we take for self-defense and to protect the people,” the defense official said, has been “exaggerated” by the rights commission.”
That is Nigerian army’s side of the story, you are avoiding posting that side, so you become a biased judge. LOL…you proved yourself to be biased and a one sided judge.
1. How do you measure proportionate force in a violent confrontation? The Nigerian chief of army staff was on official assignment, shiites blocked the road and said he should turn back and not pass because Shiites have taken over the road until further notice. The shiites broke Nigerian law by blocking a Nigerian road, also broke Nigerian law by stopping a military convoy from proceeding on an official mission of national security.
2. The Shiites were armed and launched forward to the army chiefs vehicle, soldiers fired rifles to protect him, fighting started, how do you control thousands of shiites that outnumber the few dozen soldiers? You want the soldiers to allow themselves and Nigerian army chief to be murdered like chickens in broad daylight, like helpless fools?
3. National Human Rights Commission passed judgement based on human feelings because a human rights commission will always complain when government agencies kill civilians.
4. Which side is telling the truth? The Nigeria Human Rights Commision was not present during the clash, so how do they know the truth? Nigerian army was present during the clash so they know what happened, and they have a right to use the measure of force they deem fit to defend themselves from thousands of men armed with dangerous weapons and heavily outnumbering a few dozen soldiers.
5. The Nigerian Human Rights Commission did not say the army was wrong to defend itself, the commission agreed that the shiites attacked the army chief of staff, the commission only wanted less force to be used, the human rights commission admitted that the shiited had to be fired upon but with less force or fewer bullets. How do you count bullets when 3,000 armed men charge forward attacking 24 soldiers?
6. Why have you Mohsin not blamed the shiites for violating Nigerian law by blocking a public road and ordering a whole army chief of staff on official duty to turn back home, and then attacking him for not obeying a shiite order in a democratic Nigeria?
I ask you again to show me how intelligent you are…LOL…ya ain’t so smart dude….ya just ain’t smart at all.
Here’s what an “intelligent person” is supposed to do when analyzing an incident like this. Look at what neutral sources (i.e. non involved parties) are saying and place most of the weight on their evaluation. In this case, Nigeria’s Human Rights Commission and the Judicial panel are the neutral parties, both which indicted the Army. These aren’t trivial charges, we’re talking about burning people alive, mass graves and hundreds of civilians dead. I’m not quoting the shia victims, nor am I quoting the Army, because they are both involved and are sure to be biased.
You are taking the Army’s defense of itself verbatim and claiming their claims self-validate themselves. That is your 3rd fallacy: circular reasoning, on top of your 1st fallacy of argument from authority. Together with blatant personal attacks/ad-hominem, that’s 3 logical strikes dude… For all your intelligence and superiority, you have no idea how to carry on a civilized debate. I’m going to stop responding to you now as I think your position has been sufficiently exposed as FUBAR and nothing you say now is going to repair the damage. Have a good weekend.
No, Mohsin, you are the one who does not know what an intelligent person will do! You should travel to Nigeria and investigate yourself and find facts which you will probably never find.
Neutral source is no source because they were NOT PRESENT at the clash site when the fighting happened, so a neutral source passing judgement on a clash they did not witness, becomes a foolish source.
Only 3 parties were present to know the truth…
1. Army 2. Shiites 3. God.
Only God can give the world a honest unbiased report, an intelligent person will leave the judgement to God and not condemn one side in favour of the other in a fight he did not personally witness when it happened. That is wisdom which you cannot fathom, it’s too deep for your level of intelligence.
Look out for the video Nigerian army released. It shows how those thugs attack the chief of Army Staff. The western media will never show that part to you.
If you search enough you can find similar statements made about Pakistan. Corruption, mismanagement, people abducted and kept in confinement illegally, extra judicial killings and the list goes on. You can find arguments against almost any country including against the US which has been directly or indirectly responsible for millions of deaths just in the last 15 years.
Nigeria is a sovereign country and has the right to defend itself the rest should be internal matters. JF-17 will be used to defend the country and to drop bombs on terrorists. PAF help improve the efficiency of NAF.
Pakistan and Nigeria are very similar in many ways and face many of the same problems. The people of both countries are resilent, resourceful, intelligent and very creative, however their full potential is not being realised. Countries like Pakistan and Nigeria need to work with each other and help each other.
You read a lot of rubbish about Nigeria from Western media but we Nigerians know the truth. You can never know more about Nigeria than Nigerians even if you read everything available online. Do you think pakistan really have good records online too? Be careful about how you address others.
Government of Nigeria is an legitimate and elected government. i don’t see any reason to curtail the deal.
It would be similar that other countries would sanction us for the army’s role in Baluchistan. We are the oppressors there. Same as the Nigerians.
In any country there is always a group of people who are unhappy. Even Canadians have to deal with the Quebecos freedom movement.
#1) Clearly, you have not done your research if you’re comparing Nigeria to Pakistan. The EU and the US placed an arms embargo on Nigeria when it executed people who were campaigning against the oil giant Shell for destroying the Niger Delta. This is the level we are dealing with in Nigeria. Even Western countries (who’s own companies are doing the exploiting) were forced to place an arms embargo on Nigeria when it crossed all limits of decency and started executing people protesting AGAINST WESTERN companies. Think about that for a second.
#2) The US has been sidelining Nigeria, choosing to work with the surrounding countries instead, because of the horrible record of the Nigerian government with oppression. It’s only recently that the new administration in Nigeria is starting to gain a little support from the outside world due to its ‘promises’ to reform. But why should they get arms BEFORE they’ve demonstrated adequate reform? Human Rights observers are already criticizing these moves by Obama and are claiming that the Nigerian government has not done enough to show that it is actually made any concrete reforms. Here’s a quote from the NY Times: “But already aides to Mr. Leahy, a sponsor of a human rights law that prohibits the State Department and Pentagon from providing military assistance to foreign militaries with poor human rights records, have expressed concern. ‘We don’t have confidence in the Nigerians’ ability to use them in a manner that complies with the laws of war and doesn’t end up disproportionately harming civilians, nor in the capability of the U.S. government to monitor their use,” said Tim Rieser, a top Leahy aide.’ ” http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/world/africa/boko-haram-nigeria-us-arms-sales-warplanes.html
#3) I’d like to ask the people who are supporting this deal about their views on the US supplying Israel with arms. Because you can’t hold two contradictory positions at the same time without being a hypocrite. If you say that it’s OK for Pakistan to sell to Nigeria, then from now on, you should shut the hell up about US supplying Israel, and never criticize the US for its hypocrisies, because you are now in the same camp and are no better.
#4) Lastly, if any nation decides to place sanctions on Pakistan for confirmed oppression, they very well should, and I would be the first to criticize Pakistan, as I do for it’s conduct in 1971. Despite the fact that Mujib did betray us and he was working with India, our armed forces committed gross violations in East Pakistan and we should apologize to Bangladesh and offer reparations. Currently though, our Armed Forces are much more professional than those of Nigeria, so stop drawing false parallels. The situation in Baluchistan is nothing compared to that in Nigeria.
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You tag Nigerian government as oppressors. Have you ever heard Nigeria oppressing any of her neighbour? You did research on Nigeria but didn’t do research on Niger delta Militant. The militant are just a few set of people from the Niger delta claiming to be fighting for their people but are actually kidnappers and Pirates. They blow up pipeline just for personal gains and even kidnap the white expatriate you claim are against the government. All the multinational oil companies were forced to relocate their headquarters to Lagos because of the militant activities even though their operations were mainly in the Niger delta.
Arms were not sold to the Nigerian government to protect the people of the North East who are mainly Muslim. But you will always find new weapons with boko haram and this doesn’t ring a bell to you. Nigeria don’t produce any of the weapon used by boko haram but they always get more to buy while the Nigerian government hardly get any country to sell weapons to them.
Most of your claims are wrong. You need to do research on how this Militant attack Nigerian army in the Niger delta but when the military launches an attack the news will be everywhere and no one ask about how it escalated.
Do you even know the current government stopped paying militant the money the last administration was paying them monthly? This was the major reason why they started blowing up pipeline and you never read about that. Do you even think it’s proper for the 20,000 people to hold 180 million people to ransom? Oil generate 90% of Nigerian government revenue and some people decided to make sure you get nothing from it and you feel the best thing is to be a fool.
Please stop spreading fault news.
Nigeria should buy JF-17’s as Pakistan can train Nigerian pilots and is already selling Super Mushak training aircrafts to Nigeria. JF-17 is mainly developed for Counter- terrorism and Counter-insurgency and this is what Nigeria wants.
This is the first time a Muslim country exported fighter jets. Great news. Go Pakistan!
JF-17 is perfect for Nigeria
Nigeria and Pakistan have a history of good relations. Nigeria is the most populace country in Africa and one the most important in Africa. The economy of Nigeria is more powerful than that of Pakistan.
If the US can sell weapons to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen and to support takfiri terrorists in Syria then there no reason why Pakistan cannot sell to Nigeria.
At a time when Pakistan has a negative international image when even Arabs want to disassociate themselves from Pakistan and instead form relationships with Israel and India, we should appreciate and respect the vote of confidence from Nigeria.
JF 17 block 3 should be base on composite material and incorporate with stealthy features as possible with help of China and can be offered help to Turkey to use as preparation and experiential project before Turkey start their work on stealth fighter
Chinese are still hiring swedish, Russian consultant on their aircraft projects. So it shows your knowledge on Global aeronautical industry
Great, Just add the bill of the ‘Swedish consultants’ to the indigenous Tejas development tab. Might have been cheaper and more effective if you’d brought them in earlier. And no, this has nothing to do with my understanding of the aeronautical industry.
Swedish consultant did work on tejas but they are not currently involved.
India as of today has climbed up the ladder. Ofcourse we hire consultants for sophispticated work primarily from france.
On the contrary, China bought entire IP of JF17 which was nothing but Mig33, from russia along with 2 prototypes.
I will be fool to peg pakistan with India
Pakistan ranks bottom 10 in innovation Index. India is ranked 54 index above yours as medium ranked. Your state suffers with basic industries such as aluminium,steel.
Pak neither have private sector might or skills service industries & nor it did ever produce any state of art R&D.
From all indicators, PAC Kamra reminds me of HAL of 1980 in terms of skills and capabilites
Yup and the great tejas was ranked on hush kit by an independent analyst. Do look it up. Quite a nice read. An unbiased assessment of india’s technological and industrial prowess.
Tejas may have been begun with consultation and help from France,US & Sweden.
so did China on almost all projects for last 40yrs
Nobody is denying that India lacked any decent industrial capability in those era. We didnt have basic forgers in 1980’s.Now worlds second biggest forgers is an Indian company. Indian nuclear companies are forging/fabricating large reactors & huge system like turbines.
Some big 100000 Tons rigs are being manufactured in India.
Meanwhile India set up 50 R&D labs in late 1970.And with those labs + western MNC; hiring thousands of Indian scientist,designers and researchers currently work for Saab,Boeing,Airbus,Ge aviation,safran,Thales & dozen defence companies in India
who R&d produce for international market!
Indian DRDO labs were pretty raw in those era & it took 30 yrs to perform. Ofcourse they r decade behind west but India is catching up in almost every sector.
India is today powered by 1000 of local pvt sector companies who work on big scale which you see in US,China.
I can almost say it with confidence that Russia wont match india in non defence manufacturing such as automobiles,steel,chemicals,heavy machines
India may not be competing with china on their scale of industries but it is catching up on that front. Todays India with its indigenous capability can produce anything which china did after some yrs of gap .
Same is not true about Pak where your R&D spending is next to zero(if we exclude funds for nukes)Assembling imported system is no R&D.
Thats sole reason, you have to start from scratch. JF17 or any other assembly only purpose is to cater to pakistani local needs & keep imports down but how much they help your aeronautical industry is big question mark as we know how much India learned from Mig21 assembly since late 1970’s.
Did you read the assessment by Justin Bronk or are we going to talk about the great Indian revolution from a discovery channel perspective?
Just bcoz a paid journalist calles JF17 better than f16 & tejas as joke doesnt matter much to us.
There is no doubt that program was delayed but as I repeat again that India spent 3 decades with the development. Its totally irrelevant now
1. It was our 1st attempt
2. We didnt have any R&D labs
3. We didnt have any 3-4th gen technology
4. We didnt have any aircraft manufacturing, vendors & project management experience
5. WE were under partial military sanctions until last decade
What matters is that we have learnt to develop an aircraft. We can develop next gen aircraft better,efficient & faster as we have developed ecosystem for most of 4th gen technology. Our pvt aeronautical industry is growing tremendously
Ofoucrse the Tejas program is delayed.What matters is that 8 tejas are being manufactured as we speak now. Most of manufacturing work is outsourced to Indian pvt sector, IFR probe & Derby BVRAAM missile are being tested.
Look at Indian naval ship building capabilities.We were nowhere until this decade.Now we are making 70-80% of nuclear submarine subsystem, 80-90% frigates & 60-70% for top class destroyers
We are at cusp of developing own AESA naval fire control radar, 3d AESA radar as we similarly developed our own PESA radar including fire control radar in 90’s.
Yes there are flaws with manufacturing practices but we r overcoming them gradually as we go on to ramp up production
Pak has this jf17 churning since 2009 but even then your block 2 have poorer radar,BVR & avionics than Tejas which is still not into FOC
Pakistan has done nothing in JF17 apart from importing machines from US & assembling JF17 at Kamra while not even 1 single sub system is pakistani.
Yup the off shelf kit gets some respect while the less said about tejas the better.
And we veer of the subject again. That paid journalist is a rusi fellow and does his homework. Quote all the figures you want if it makes you happy. Now say after me hope or joke?
It’s not a “relative term,” it’s a deductive conclusion, backed by empirical facts. History is a graveyard littered with corpses of nations and empires who all thought their irrational ‘foresights’ would save them against causality.
So called Facts are construed differently by the Victor and the vanquished as are empirical facts when a shared or enforced perspective does not exist. Yes and it’s also the arrogance of nations that blinds them to causality and unintended consequences.
You’re confusing the word “fact” with “narrative.” Anyways, dude I don’t have time to convince you that water is wet and/or the Nigerian state is oppressive etc.
Then don’t try and have this conversation on an open forum. It’s all about discussion and not a one way analysis of things.
And while you’re at it, do look up scientific falsification.
I’ve already made the case of why Nigeria is an oppressive State below, in a long and detailed post to user Amir Khan, none of those points you’re even attempting to deal with. If you wanted to have a constructive discussion, you would’ve first dealt with those points, but are instead going off on a uselessly confused tangent to defend selling arms to Nigeria. So you’re basically trolling.
And secondly, I’m very familiar with “scientific falsification” thanks. You on the other hand clearly have no idea what it is, as you obviously don’t know even the difference between the terms “empirical fact” and “historical narrative.”
That’s why you have a conversation not a monologue. Informative.
Then don’t try trolling the issue. And here a third party candidly admits that the kit is a better platform than thirty years and billions of dollars of indian R&D and manufacturing. The problem is the indian fan boys denial of the mediocrity of the package that is tejas. Neff said.
what hs pakistan to offer in jf17
what are your contributions. do u even produce aircraft aluminum nd steel?
You dont need to produce everything. in a competitive world, basic rule of economics. What’s the use of being able to do all you say you can do but still come up with a substandard package? Indian’s reinvent a faulty wheel at the expense of billions and over decades and then want to brag about it. That’s just stupidity.
Yes pakistan puts together the best wheel possible with off the shelf parts. You don’t.
1. You dont need to produce everything but u need to produce something
2. Every new product evolves from low quality to higher quality as you spend more resources on R&D. A country of India’s size cant afford to import
3. India reinvented the wheel of Radar,Avionics,Composites, Airframe but it has reached the stage that it is on verge of making its own thrust vectoring turbofan engine with in a decade while china too have made it possible now after 3-4 decades of mindless investment in engine programs
We also have good offset policy with US & FRance which offers good incentive for local R&D providing decent opportunities to Indian companies
Lets compare India with Pakistan on basic missile technology
Pakistan doesnt have SLBM,ABM-Anti ballistic missile, SAM, AAM, BVRAAM, Anti radiation missiles program but India have all of these missile. They may not be state of art but they evolve with more R&D
a. Pakistan uses 60-70 era jet vanes technology with low specific fule/impulse in shaheen missile series(borrowed from china) + no thrurst vector control
India uses 5th gen advanced composite motor casing + composite engine high impulse solid rocket engine with Thrust vectoring
This is result of 40-50 yr R&D which puts india in elite club where India became 4th country to test scramjet which Pakistan cant dare attempt in many generations
B. Same case study can be made on radar,avionics where India have reached threshold needed for local sustainable R&D.
In couple of decades, India would be competing with West in aeronautical as we compete with them in satellites fabrication,SLV & missiles. Same cant be inferred about Pakistan as nobody knows if you do anything more than assembling
Contrary to the Quwa analyst’s opinion, Nigeria will be arming her JF-17 as multirole air superiority and strike platforms with both BVRAAM and LGB.
They are upgrading the NAF in response to a shift in air power balance in 2014 when next door neighbour Chad acquired 3 MiG-29 Fatback variant with BVRAAM. So, 2015 Nigeria responded by budgeting for 3 JF-17 Thunder likely Block II variant.
They have many COIN aircraft already in service or on order to tackle the already weakened and decimated Boko Haram terrorists who have been reduced to motorcycle and horse riding insurgents following the destruction of all Boko Haram armoured vehicles by NAF air power and Nigerian army T-72 tanks in the final assault of 2015.
Nigeria thus will regain air superiority in the West and Central Africa region. Also NAF will have in 2017 the most balanced air force in the whole continent of Africa next to Egypt at number one spot, and Algeria at number two.
NAF combat inventory will look like in 2017…
▶JF-17 multirole air superiority/strike
▶F-7 interceptor/ground attack
▶Alpha jet trainer/light ground attack
▶L-39 trainer/light ground attack
▶MBB 339 trainer/light attack
▶Super Tucano trainer/CT-COIN
▶Super Mushshak trainer/light COIN,
▶Beechcraft 360 ER ISTAR/AWACS
▶CH-3 UAV/ISTAR/PGM strike
▶Yabhon Flash UAV/ISTAR
▶Mi-35M Attack/PGM Strike
▶Mi-171s Assault/PGM strike
Nigerian air force is the third most powerful in Africa from Cape Town to Cairo.