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Turkey’s New Long-Range Air Defence System to be Indigenous?
June 23, 2017
The Chinese HQ-9 long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM), which was the original winner of the T-LORAMIDS program.

Turkey’s New Long-Range Air Defence System to be Indigenous?

29 November 2015

By Bilal Khan

It seems Turkey is going to tap into its indigenous capacities in order to pursue a longstanding requirement for a long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system. This comes at the heels of Ankara cancelling what would have been a $3.44 billion US deal with China Precision Machinery Import Export Corp (CPMIEC) for the latter’s HQ-9 system over concerns by its NATO partners. While Turkey did re-open talks with Raython and Eurosam, it has ultimately opted to pursue a local solution instead of an off-the-shelf alternative in the form of the Patriot or SAMP/T.

Turkey’s pursuit of long-range SAMs could be traced to as early as 2006 when its government formally announced that it would evaluate American, Israeli and Russian systems. The T-LORAMIDS (Turkey Long Range Air and Missile Defence System) program, as it would eventually be designated, envisaged a commercial sale paired with extensive technology transfers, enabling Turkey to build and customize the system to meet its specific needs. In 2013 Ankara selected CPMIEC and its HQ-9 offering as the winner of the tender, which not only met Turkey’s technology transfer needs, but came in at the lowest price.

Expectedly, NATO was not warm to the deal. The selection of the HQ-9 immediately set the fact that Turkey would need to raise its own air defence network independent to that of NATO. This was seen as having two main problems. First, that it would be alien to the systems in use by the rest of NATO (Patriot and SAMP/T), making it difficult for interoperability, especially in the case where NATO would apparently need to help Turkey (and vice-versa) – incompatible missiles and subsystems. Second, though implicitly hinted, the prospect of the Chinese being in close proximity to NATO’s air defence systems through Turkey. In the end the pressure induced on Turkey was heavy enough to have it overturn its decision, but interestingly, it also opted to cancel the import bid entirely.

T-LORAMIDS is now effectively an indigenous program, and it is expected to draw from key Turkish (state-owned) defence industry players including Aselsan and Roketsan in terms of electronics and missile development, respectively. We are still speaking in terms of very early stages, but with some measure of foreign input, it is plausible Turkey will push ahead to locally fulfill this requirement.

Granted, long-range air defence radars and SAMs are entirely new realms for the Turkish defence industry, but it would not be accurate say they are incapable of getting there (albeit with foreign support, going at it alone in every respect would be a major financial and time risk). For example, Turkey’s short and medium-range SAM projects are moving along nicely: The short-range air defence (SHORAD) missile Hisar-A, which has a maximum range of 15km at sea-level and maximum altitude of 5km had its first tests in October 2013. This was followed by the medium-range Hisar-O, with a maximum range of 25km at sea-level and maximum altitude of 10km, in August 2014.

The Hisar-A and Hisar-O are produced by Roketsan and are supported by Aselsan’s radar and fire control technology. The missiles themselves seem to be right up there with their current-day contemporaries, such as the MBDA MICA-VL: The Hisar-A/O are vertically launched SAMs propelled by dual-pulse solid fuel, which enable the rocket to launch as well as engage in mid-course flight (first pulse), and then enter the terminal stage (second pulse) at a higher-speed. They also have thrust-vectoring nozzles, which allow for greater maneuvering, which is beneficial against particularly agile targets.

What the Hisar-A/O demonstrate is that Turkey does possess at least some of the underlying technological research and development base to develop a long-range SAM system, though there is no doubt that the feasibility of the program would see a boost if foreign assistance can be acquired. Turkey could opt to acquire that input in one of two ways (if their prior programs are of any indication). One method would be to simply import commercially-off-the-shelf technology and integrate it within the Turkish system, as it had done with the SOM air-launched cruise missile (ALCM). The SOM uses a turbojet engine developed by the French company Microturbo. However, this approach will still make Turkey dependable on an external vendor, which could be a problem in certain respects, such as exporting.

The alternative method, though likely more expensive, could involve a Turkish firm tapping into foreign expertise and R&D with the aim of ultimately owning the resulting intellectual property (IP). This is essentially what the firm TUMOSAN is doing in regards to the Altay main battle tank’s engine: In October TUMOSAN signed a contract with the Austrian firm AVL List for technical support for the tank engine’s power unit. Owning the IP would definitely be beneficial for Turkey considering that it would not only have a full turnkey indigenous solution, but the T-LORAMIDS would be a readily exportable system. There are not many sources for long-range SAM systems, but demand is steadily growing, Turkey may be thinking in terms of competing on the market as well.

Speculation aside, T-LORAMIDS will certainly be one of Turkey’s riskier and more ambitious programs. It will be interesting to in see (irrespective of the level of control it has over IP or whether it is a complete turnkey solution) if it enters the naval realm as well, for use on Turkey’s future frigates.

  • Muhammad Shahid

    While Turkey’s problems with HQ-9 are genuine keeping in view their NATO alliance, I think Chinese offer was good enough to attract Turkey (Low price with TOT Deal). Do Pak have intentions to acquire this system or we are OK with Italian system?

    • saqrkh

      The Italian system the PAF uses is the Spada 2000, which is a medium range SAM. It’s quite good, but it isn’t a long-range system. One could argue if PAF would even need such a system, but as India is poised to induct one in the form of S-400 or Arrow, not having a system that can track and engage Indian targets within India (while India could do the mirror equivalent to Pakistan,) could be seen as a major gap. It’s hard to imagine seeing Pakistan pursue anything but HQ-9 given its financial and vendor access issues. If Pakistan is willing to take a risk though, then joining Turkey’s T-LORAMIDS could be a worthwhile idea.

      • Guest

        Pakistan should consider a long range SAM and Anti ballistic missile shield. I believe it is a huge deterrent. A long range SAM will take some pressure of the Airforce.
        What exactly is the range of Spada2000? and when Pak had the Crotale, why has it imported its Chinese copy FM90, is it an improved version ?

        • saqrkh

          The range of the Spada 2000 is 20km+, and I’m not entirely sure of the rationale behind the FM-90, but it could relate to the fact that it was an acquisition by the Army Air Defence, not PAF.

      • jigsaww

        If reports are to be trusted, PAF actually has been interested in acquiring a LRSAM system for quite a while now (at least since 2005), and HQ9/FD2000 etc etc has been surfacing. Possibly financial issues, combined with chinese systems not qualifying PAF’s requirements must have suspended the deal. But with india now deploying multiple layers of short, medium, and long range SAMs, PAF will accelerate this acquisition. PAF does have short and medium layers but the gap is void in long range arena. The other problem is that inherently pakstan is at geographical disadvantage vs. india. With S-400 India is able to basically cover and track entire pakistani territory, especially the forwad air bases, but even while PAF deploying 200 km+ LRSAMs, india will retain the advantage. That may not be of concern to PAF as long as india does not move back its FABs, 70% of which are based along indo-pak border within 200 kms. Moreover, S-400 will also provide india with a very credible ballistic missile shield, which pakistan will still lack in some way. I see S400 as game changing acquisition by india. How pakistan counters that remains to be seen. Not many (or any ) choices though. The threat however is 5 years away or so…so that may buy pakistan some time.

        • saqrkh

          Agreed. The acquisition of long-range SAMs won’t completely mitigate the issue of India having S-400; our lack of ‘strategic depth’ is going to hurt. I would wonder if not having Afghanistan (and the Central Asian states) firmly aligned with us is going to be a fatal liability, and I invite people to figure out what could be done to equitably and fairly rectify that situation.

          • jigsaww

            There was a time pakistan enjoyed having afghanistan virtually the same country as pakistan. I’ve heard reports of pakistan even having some of its “strategic” assets deployed in afghanistan to expand its depth. 9/11 however changed all that just too much. We now live with USA (and not afghanistan) as our next door neighbor, There seems to be a very little or no possibility of pakistan ever having to enjoy that kind of depth again, even after a complete supposed US pullout. Options for pakistan are limited and getting limited year by year. Whereas the Indian threat benefits from the fact that indian acquisitions are unprecedented at this point of time. Never in history has india been buying cutting edge weaponry from Russia, US, Israel, France – all at the same time and at such rate. A lot of american tech is already getting transferred to india via israel, and the remaining is flowing in with new deals.

            Multiple precautions need to be taken and apparently everything needs to be done within our present depth. Credible conventional deterrence is crucial here in peace time. I believe the new acquisition of 8 Chinese submarines actually point to countering some of that. Pakistan will need to deploy two nuclear subs as well in next decade. There is definitely need for 300 km+ S-400 type LRSAM/BMD system along with better and more LR radars. At the end of the day, it needs to be tit for tat response.

            The other cost effective approach of course should be to acquire systems that can effectively take out and break the net centric web built around the SAM and BMD systems. That should happen within first 24 hours of combat. If pakistan can ensure a breakage of net centric warfare…

    • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

      ToT China offered wasn’t covered what Turkey wanted So failure in negotiation was pretty certain about a year ago…

  • blabla bla

    @@jigsaww:disqus

  • blabla bla

    @jigsaww:disqus
    India has a defence budget of 40 billion dollar and out of it around 15 billion dollar they are spending on buying new weapons and technologies Combat jets , missiles Air craft carriers . On the other hand pakistan has around 700 million to 1 billion for air force almost the same amount Pakistan spend on Navay and arms forces . Pakistan has one major advantage the Pakistan china economic corridor which will open new trade route for China , Pakistan even central Asian stated and even Russia and the west .China before the completion of sea pact will provide Pakistan with more advance weapons like Submarines Helicopters, missile the aim is to stabalize pakistan Militarily and also economically . Pakistan can ask china for chinese version of S300 recently Iran has bought 300 batteries for 800 million dollar . Pakistan with 100 to 150 such batteries , half on the Indian and Afghan border are enough to neutralize the long range SAM attack .On the other hand China has a Dong Feng missile which is a aircraft carrier killer it operates with a satellite and can search for all the existing Carrier near to our coast and can destroy them would be considered lethal . In fact S400 is a real game changer India with S-400 would make all our airforce vulnerable . But China has already made a deal with Russia and China will get S400 earlier than India . Pakistan can get a Chinese version of S-400 which means will create a balance in the region between Pakistan and India . Russia is also coming closer to Pakistan . Russia as a future economic partner would be very important . Pakistan can get cheap energy along with cooperation in defense Pakistan main defense partner would always be China and Russia as a economic partner will help boost Pakistan its GDP. One important development is China working on Hypersonic missiles which has a speed of above 5.5 Mach there are very few countries which poses such technology. Pakistan can acquire such technologies to have an upper hand on India . On the other hand Pakistan can develop a drone system with China which can go at hyper sonic or high Supersonic speed above Mach 3 or 4 . such sealth drones can easily deter and tackle India air force . In the end important things for Pakistan is zarb eazam would succeed and finanical terrorists should be hanged and GDP should grow atleast at 6 or 7 untill 2020 . Pakistan should have a defense budget of 40 percent of India so that it can maintain its deterrence Long live Pakistan and China . Sad for Turkey and Erdogan who shoot him selves in his foot .The interesting development in the middle east would be the creation of Kurdistan lets see how turkey will respond to it . So far its aligned with west and doing the same mistake which pakistan did joining USA against Soviet Union .
    We hope for a better world
    Regards

    • jigsaww

      Thanks. Very nice thoughts.
      Yes i do agree CPEC would be game changer and also a blessing in disguise since of both pakistan and china, china has bigger stake in CPEC and will therefore willingly or otherwise equip pakistan with credible defence of its mutual assets.
      S-400 for india is around 5 years away since the deal is not signed yet and indians tend to delay deals. That should give pakistan enough time to create a response strategy and deploy alternative assets. Ultimately it all depends on how fast china will be able to learn from S400 and bring it into service. At this point, India’s rafale deal is also 7 years away in full acquisition.

      I believe your reference is to CM-400 AKG hypersonic cruise missile. It in active service with china i believe, but pakistan has not as yet bought this system. I believe they should, to neutralize gound and sea based targets. It is one of the most lethal systems Pakistan could have eventually.

      One other thing pakistan definitely needs to work up on is MIRVs. A four to six MIRV missile system on shaheen is required. Shaheen 3 needs to be improved to range upto 3500 km and with much better CEP. Pakistan will also find it crucial to have its babur cruise missile range extended to 1500 km, since with deployment of S400, many current missile systems will be less and less potent unless MIRV-ed or cruise missiles replace them to large extent. Pakistan has for some reason given up on its missile systems and nothing new or improved has been done in last 7 years or so. It is missing out on many areas…

      One other area is sea based defence, that india needs to be adhering to by deploying baarak 8 ER. Pakistan will need to strengthen its coastal defence by equipping its destroyers with medium to high range systems.

      I see all these platforms crucial after 2025. And hope that russia and pakistan will be even closer by then.

    • MT

      The topic is about turkey.

  • blabla bla

    @jigsaww:disqus Keep in mind in this world economy is a much bigger weapon Pakistan has a current export of 25 billion dollar and every year around 6 billion dollar Pakistan is lending from IMF as a loan there is almost a corruption of around 20 billion dollar in FBR because of no system of tax collection . Zarb e azam has to succeed tax reforms are essential . Pakistan has to increase export to around 60 to 80 billion dollar a year . Dont worry Pakistan can make atleast 20 billion or more every year which is quite good revenue and along side the CPEC alot of new industries will start building and it would be a new era of Production . Pakistan can gradually shift from agriculture economy to a Production one .Even if China is not able to learn and make its own S400 they can pain them in there colors and provide them to Pakistan . ofcourse Russia will not say anything because they are already interested in CPEC and supplying pakistan with LNG and oil . There is a hug scope for Russian steel and Oil industry also for airlines business. Pakistan on the other hand can export wheat rice and there is a large scope of helal market for Pakistan in China and Russia . Russia has already made a deal with China for SU 35 and it will acquire 24 of them it seems there is an under the table deal that they will deploy the SU 35 on CPEC and will tell Russia and the world we have leased those jets to Pakistan . Regarding the Missile technology like MIRVS and babur cruise missile Pakistan has to work on it . One think is very important what ever defense equipment Pakistan posses a lot of it is not shown to the world . Pakistan dont want that a lot of eye brows are raised when the time will come the world and India both will see . Pakistan has to work on its economy counter terrorism stability in balochistan ,Karachi NWFP and a stable economy . with a export of above 60 billion dollar a year . We hope for a better Pakistan

    • jigsaww

      I agree.

  • blabla bla

    @jigsaww:disqus I was talking about the WU-14 hypersonic glide vehicle . I think its new another things is Russia is now coming towards central Asia also back in Afghanistan and Russia never wins without Pakistan in this region they know the potential of Pakistan . Now Pakistan has the best chance to get better equipment from Russia and India is already looking at USA . India is the second largest importer of military weapons from USA after Saudi arabia and its imports are around 25 billion dollar . Pakistan can cash the CPEC both economically and can make its defense more strong. Also can benefit from both China and Russia along with USA which still needs Pakistan support in Afghanistan and in the stability of this region .

    • jigsaww

      Right.-

  • blabla bla

    @jigsaww:disqus this is absurd that “with S-400 India is able to basically cover and track entire pakistani territory,” S 400 has a maximum range of 400 km . On the other hand Pakistan can get HQ-19 chinese equivalent other options are DF -15 or DF-21 , DH -10 land attack cruise missile with range of around 2500 km there is also a possibility of sleathy cruise missile along with hypersonic missiles Pakistan with few hundred of such weapons will have a edge on India even if China wouldnt transfer the technology to Pakistan

    • jigsaww

      Well last i checked, pakistan’s broad width is under 500 kms from indian borders, which is why india’s prithvi missile basically covers all of pakistan. We have a disadvantage of depth and its fairly known and acknowledged in pakistan army order of battle as well as strategy. It would be pretty biased to say that S-400 is unable to track most of pakistani territory when S-400 depending on its variant, is able to track upto 600 kms and utilize missile up to 400 km.

      Unless pakistan and pakistanis make a correct assessment of the threat (and not revert to faboi analysis), it will be impossible to come up with a sound counter strategy.

      Also, chinese missiles are china’s property, not pakistan. I do not take for granted that everything in chinese inventory is openly available to pakistan. there are export control restrictions as well as china’s own political reasons or pakistani requirements.

      like i said, in last 7 years pakistan has not done anything to induct or better its ballistic systems, whereas india did catch up with more tests.

      I do not suppose pakistan will counter this threat before 5 years. The military will wait and watch and deploy own systems in the same time frame as india’s. As of now, S-400 is on cards but not signed. Chances are it will happen but you do not know when. It is not an immediate threat.

    • MT

      India is not buying S-400 so soon. It will take time for negotiations. There are no funds to buy such costly equipment. It cost 500 mill$ for a single battery. There is no point wasting money covering into Pakistan’s territory,

      On other hand, India can turn AAD into LRSAM (Long range Hq9 type of SAM)with range of 150-200 KM.

      It can either use the swordfish radars to secure some of the most vulnerable sites. Indian AAD missile can be produced at cost 1mill$. Radar for LRSAM will cost about 50 mill$ if produced in house.

      India can protect 150-200 KM radius with cost of 100 mill$. 20 such battery will cost 2 bill$ and they can safeguard entire western border.

  • bla bla

    U shouldnt worry man China is the only country in
    the world to provide Pakistan with civil nuclear deal and the
    relationship between the two countries are really deep . Pakistan and
    China relation is same like India and Israel relation or USA &
    Israel relationship .Pakistan & China are natural allies . China has
    offered Pakistan J10 B , J11 , J16 all the state of art emerging
    technologies . It is essentail for balance in the region that China has
    to help Pakistan develop its deterance and to play the role of a
    peaceful neighbor. The weapons Pakistan posses they are not for
    destruction but to avoid war in the region and play an important role in
    south asian regional stability .China already know all the technology
    which India posses most of it is from Russia and Israel nothing is
    indegenous. So in return they have to help Pakistan become more strong
    one example of it is the 8 submarines deal and JF17 thunder . Now
    regarding S400 it took pakistan 7 years to deter a cold star doctrine
    and now the short range tactical missile is placed on the border .
    Pakistan will find a solution of cutting edge indian missile with time .
    For pakistan its important to eradicate all type of terrorism . A guy
    like you should read books like economic hitman . You will understand
    the 5 generation warfare how the enemy makes your economy cripples
    create insurgencies and make a

    country unstable to keep its citizens and assets safe .

  • MT

    The author is simply putting the project map of turkish SAM. Any country needs 10-15 yrs to buiild a simple SAM. Turkey is no different.

    A country which can barely make a solid rocket engine cant jump to Dual pulse rocket engine in 2-3 years. Turkey is far behind Iran, Pakistan in rocket engine.
    Turkey is member of MTCR. I expect that Most of these projects will be sourced from western contractors.

    Turkish SAM borrows from MICA-MBDA. The helicopters is italian. The radars, SOM Cruise missiles have more than 60+% French components.

    IF Pakistan Joint MTCR then it can make all of these projects at home:) Everything is freely available in western market if you dont cross the limit of 300 KM!

    • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

      Turkey substantially helped Pakistan in their Indigenous missile program especially back in 90s. Also there is significant diffrent building dual stages missile and building of the dual stage missile that can target airbreathing targets? Plus Turkey already designed and produced its own indigenous engine for SOM. Which Pakistan really wanna know how…

      • MT

        Dont want to be rude but Turkey doesnt have any missile or range more than 500 Km range. Pakistan have missiles up to range of 2750 KM.
        Turkey havent made any turbofan engine:)

        SOM uses French engine : Microturbo TrI 40. Turkey is member of MTCR(missile contorl tech regime)
        Most of the components used in SOM are sourced from small component vendors located in EU,USA. While others are bought by Rocketstan and Aselsan with costly TOT from french,Italian companies.

        Any country who is member of MTCR can sources those sub system 🙂

        and make a good looking western equipment!

        Turkey doesnt produce equipment at asian cost. They are atleast 50% costlier than China,
        So it implies that Turkey private companies are paying royalty for using many western sub-systems

        • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

          Yea Turkey built one just look for “kale group” They are partner with P&W and They even built factory for f35 and other aerospace project in Turkey and Kale group(without p&w) is also making another factory in my Hometown. No that isn’t rude but it’s True that Turkey doesn’t have long range missile but Turkey decided to built long range missile just 2 or 3 years ago. Pakistan needed that tech since it’s foundation. But the difference between Turkeys and Pakistans rockets is simple, Every Turkish rocket has cep of 5 metres because Turkey use them against small terrorist targets.Pakistan use them to carry nuke so 5 metre or 500 metres make no difference.

          • MT

            P&W is not sharing any technology. They will be only making some components needed in JF-35engine.

            – Pratt & Whitney and Kale Havacilik San, A.S., (Kale Group) of Istanbul, Turkey, announced the formation of a joint venture partnership to produce aircraft engine components

            I am not sure if Turkey can make those IIR seeker and active homing radar indigenously.

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            I tried to share link, disqus didn’t let me share but here it’s a article about som engine; “Kale throttles up jet development for SOM” (Google this)
            And secondly I know Turkish firm Aselsan is able to produce infrared sensors (which I have seen some photos of how they produce in a conference) and I read about their IIR seekers in Turkish but I couldn’t find any article about it though in English.

          • MT

            All of the imaging technology is possible bcoz they can source LCU and components from EU, US since Turkey is a member of MTCR.

            Aselsan have made 10+ radars in last 5-10 years. Most of them cost as much as western radars. They all are atleast 50% costlier than China,
            So it implies that Turkey private companies are paying royalty for using many western sub-systems

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            Yea That’s kinda true that is benefit of such a promise.but As far as I know they aren’t buying subsystems, though they are buying a lot component. But They built at least 3 factory in the last decade or so.And they employ a couple thousands PhD+ level engineer along side All the r&d support they can want.But more importantly because of their high r&d budget (and high government support), their local contend ratio is increasing steadily for a long time. Which is most important thing imho.

          • MT

            Hisar missiles are licensed production of DIEHL /BGT German missiles by ASELSAN

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            If you can give me one link , I am gonna believe you. But Aselsan isn’t the one who is producing rocket anyway. Roketsan developing it right now. And They tested some concepts back in june.

          • MT

            You need to see both the missiles during test and u ll find them how similar they are:)..
            IF you search on google then you will get old Google cache on jane defense which was later removed on request by Aselsan,rocketsan.

            .Hence they removed the citation about DIEHL/BGT.

            Google search hits from jane will still show you the summary of the old article!

            Please Google
            ” between DIEHL /BGT Germany and ASELSAN

            I would also like to give more details about Turkish industries:)

            1. The Hisar-I / O is a product of Diehl / BGT Germany produced under license by Aselsan, being that only 30% is Turkish. 2
            2. KALKAN the radar Aselsan is only one AN-MPQ-64 Raytheon,

            3. FCR radar Ku band Aselsan is a Swiss license of Oerlikon, which also now belongs to the Rheinmetall Group.
            4. The SMART-S radar MK II is authorized by Aselsan “Hollandse Signaal” or Thales Nerderlands
            5. Radar Alselan Hsar MSR X-Band is a license Rheinmetall / Oerlikon
            – The missile is an SL Diehl Defence IRIS-T licensed product

            6. Oerlikon also provided IIR seeker for Som cruise missile.

            R&D requires 3-4 decades of public sector effort. Turkish private sector companies mainly source LCU and sensors from abroad with some kind of long term licensing agreement.

            You have to first develop a simple 5-10 Km range radar before coming out with SAR, AESA radar, S/X band, Ku band seeker.

            Also remember that home grown product built from scratch will look less appealing.

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            4. The SMART-S radar MK II is authorized by Aselsan “Hollandse Signaal” or Thales Nerderlands

            That is the truth that We don’t disagree

            6. Oerlikon also provided IIR seeker for Som cruise missile.

            This is kinda truth, I heard prototypes and may be first batchs might use exported iir seekers or sensor but 2 or 3 years ago aselsan started producing infrared sensors and .iir/ ir seekers.

            1. The Hisar-I / O is a product of Diehl / BGT Germany produced under license by Aselsan, being that only 30% is Turkish.

            They didn’t even completed their own r&d project that’s quite funny but I am gonna give you that iris t sl has similarities to hisar but that’s it. You are probably reading too much low quality military blogs. “Looking similar / having common components/subsystems” and “produced under license” isn’t the same thing.

          • MT

            6. Buddy, IIR seeker is not something you can develop without TOT:)

            7. Diehl / BGT IRIS-T project finished their product 10 yrs ago.

            In 1995, Germany announced the IRIS-T development program, in collaboration with Greece, Italy, Norway, Sweden and Canada. Canada later dropped out, while in 2003 Spain joined as a partner for procurement.[9] The German Air Force took first delivery of the missile on 5 December 2005
            IDAS project R&D is being done by Germany with turkish money:)
            Germans have experience of many decades while Hisar is the 1st attempt by Rocketstan

            There is no TOT for complex submarine launched IDAS which is revealed in media

            On May 2013, the Turkish company Roketsan and the German IDAS Consortium formed by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and Diehl BGT Defence signed a cooperation agreement to develop and supply the submarine-launched IDAS (= Interactive Defence and Attack System for Submarines) missile

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            Hisar has similarities with iris t sl not with iris t. You don’t even know bases of your own arguments just copy pasting via Google.

          • MT

            Its understood that Its one with surface to air missile:)

            IRIS-T SLS (Surface Launched Short Range) uses the unchanged air-to-air missile IRIS-T for vertical firing from a launcher mounted on a Unimog 5000 vehicle. The reasonably priced, mobile and all-terrain capable “plug & fight“ short-range air defence system is suited for airspace defence and object protection, e.g. radar units, airfields, etc..

            The vertical start enables comprehensive 360° defence. The infrared seeker´s lock-on to the target occurs before launching after target designation by ground station´s battle management system.

            The IRIS-T SLS guided missile can be adapted to country-specific transport- and launcher vehicles with a variable frame system.

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            From Wikipedia;

            Within the MEADS program, the German Air Force plans to integrate a surface-launched (SL) radar-guided version of the missile, called IRIS-T SL. It has a pointed nose, unlike the regular IRIS-T.[12] The IRIS-T SL qualification tests were completed during January 2015 at the Denel Overberg Test Range in South Africa.[13]

            Hisar program starred a couple years ago. But iris t sl is completed this year. If you claim Rocket of hisar built under license of older rocket I might seriously consider you might be right. I remember last Turkey tested these rockets, your claims simply doesn’t make sense.Both aspect of it. Turkey accepting untried unfinished missile and Germans lisencing their newest rocket?

          • MT

            I went through all papers of Rocketsan and i found nothing on dual pulse rocket engine. The quality of paper on jet vanes are horrible.

            I end my discussion now:)

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            Which papers do you checked?
            And where did you checked+

          • MT

            Google scholar with all papers from roketsan & TÜBİTAK

            Papers on jet vanes had no citations.

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            what is the title of the article you are referring to? I found this article;

            Design Optimization of Rocket Nozzles by
            A. A. Ezertas
            , M. Yumusak
            and S. Eyi.

            Which has 17 reference? I haven’t read it yet So I dont know quality of it but I am gonna read though.

          • MT

            The article has 0 citations. No other article cites it.

            These are one of the basic stuffs in rocket propulsion=>

            It is aimed to develop a computational design tool, which can be used in
            design of rocket components in chemically reacting flows. The flow analysis is based on
            axisymmetric Euler and the finite rate reaction equations

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            I don’t Get your point, There is no reason for anybody cite from article. “Neither citations has relevance to anything in this case. This article combines varies books and etc. It doesn’t put much new knowledge So there is no reason for anybody cite from this article. They should cite from original article? But that has nothing to do with Roketsan’s ability to design rocket. They should use these fundamental knowledge for designing rocket just like any other company?

          • MT

            precisely my point. Its simply amalgam of many literature. Nothing new this article.
            Countries such as Russia,China,India have spend 4-5 decades of R&D
            china,India made their 1st dual pulse rocket engine in 2010. Turkey started rocket program in 1980-90 with assistance from china. Their 1st test of missile was in 90’s/2000’s.

            So for it to make 5th gen SAM with smokeless dual pulse rocket engine is too early breakthrough to believe for any scientific community

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            Yes it’s too early if We were to develop every single material but I never said that They are using exported materials components and subsystems. But Designing the System and buying some of the components while continuously increasing local content ratio by Making r&d more and more in every project. That is what Turkey is doing. For instance We even bought our fuel for Som rocket until last year. But last year tubitak developed local jp10 rocket fuel locally. You can check this from tübitak ‘s website “Türkiye’nin İlk Yerli Füze Yakıtı Üretildi” (just Google this then Google translate can handle rest) . Then Roketsan started to producethat. But I highly doubt

          • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

            Where did you learn Hisar a/o was using iris t? Til Hisar developed with 2 diffrent missile. Local missile wasn’t ready yet So first tests were done with iris t derivative, Are you working in Diehl Defence or something?

          • MT

            Also in 1997, Turkey for the first time signed a contract with China for the procurement of 24 WS-1 302mm unguided rockets as well as 144 rockets for licenced-assembly in Turkey, to be supplied between 1998 and 2000. Turkey next began licence-producing the TR-300 rockets (or T-302, upgraded from the four-barrel WS-1B MLRS) under under the Turkish designation Kasırga (tornado).

            In late 1998, based on a similar contract signed with the state-owned China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp (CPMIEC), Ankara ordered some 15 of China’s most advanced short-range surface-to-surface battlefield support missiles (SSBSM)–the 150km-range B-611–and under Project J-600T, began license-producing an additional 200 more under a US$300 million deal. The first such missiles—known as Yıldırım (thunderbolt), were deployed as early as 2001. The solid-fuelled Yildirim-2 variant, featuring a 300km-range, was subsequently developed jointly by the defence industries research and development institute of the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (TUBITAK-SAGE), Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corp (MKEK), and the state-owned China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp (CASIC), while it was series-produced by Roket Sanayii ve Ticaret (Roketsan). Another product jointly developed by TUBITAK and CASIC (and produced by Roketsan) since 2004 is the 70mm (2.75-inch) ‘Cirit’ guided air-to-surface missile, which is derived from the Tianyan TY-90 (Heavenly Swallow) air-to-air missile. The ‘Cirit’ features a semi-active laser homing seeker, Goodrich Corp-built SiIMU-02 inertial measurement unit (IMU) and a 3kg armour-piercing warhead built with Class 5 insensitive munitions. The 14kg, 1.9 metre-long missile has a range of 8km with a high probability of hit on a 3 × 3 metre target at this range

      • MT

        Som cm was built with Israel tech.
        Israel manufacturerd popeye cruise missile in Turkey.
        Shared tech helped turkey develop som

        • Sinan Cagrı Kurt

          It’s true that Israel manufactured popoye missile in Turkey but I really need see your source about this, I have never read anything about Israeli tech support and As far as I know ” tübitak sage” division helped to r&d.

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