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Turkey and Russia in final stages of S-400 SAM talks
August 18, 2017
S-400. Photo credit: Wikipedia

Turkey and Russia in final stages of S-400 SAM talks

In a press conference with Turkish journalists at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, Russian President outlined that negotiations regarding the sale of Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems are in their final stages.

Responding to questions about Turkey’s co-production requirements, Putin stated (via Anadolu Agency) that the process “requires great preparation in terms of technology and training staff.”

Ankara began speaking to Moscow about the S-400 in February, following a thaw in relations between the two countries from a spike in tension following the downing of a Russian Su-24 by the Turkish Air Force.

In March, Rostec (the industry organization representing Russia’s state-owned companies) CEO Sergey Chemezov revealed that the Russian Ministry of Finance was in talks with the Turkish government on the latter’s request for a loan to finance the possible deal.

In parallel, the Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) commissioned the development of a homegrown long-range SAM system. Although S-400 talks are progressing, the head of SSM, Dr. Ismail Demir, stated that “people should follow is the future and duration of our [homegrown] national system.”

Besides the off-the-shelf purchase of S-400 SAM systems, Turkey may also seek Russia’s technical support for its national SAM program. There is precedent for this in that Almaz-Antey assisted South Korea in its development of the Cheongung (Iron Hawk).

The S-400 has a maximum engagement range of 400 km (via the 4096 missile). However, it can also deploy the 48N6, 9M96E2 and 9M96E, which afford 250 km, 120 km and 40 km in range, respectively. Its primary sensor suite comprises of the 92N6E Grave Stone radar, which is capable of tracking 100 targets and can simultaneously engage six. China and India have S-400 systems on order from Russia.

  • FAUJI JAT

    Recently D.R.D.O. has test fired a QR-SAM based on Astra MK1 BVRAAM and mounted on super stallion heavy duty truck, it will be inducted in the IA air defence corps in large numbers to provide mobile air defence to strike corps.

    • Alex Retiman

      And how is this comment relevant to Turkey and Russian talks on S-400?

      • Ali Afzal

        He is an Indian

    • Aaif khan

      Pakistanis are not obsess with India while you guys are obsess with Pakistan and these days even with Turkiye Lol.

      BTW, congratulation.

  • Steve

    This development is interesting for Pakistan. The assumption up to now had been that we will simply induct HQ-9 for our long range SAM coverage requirement. That may still happen especially in the short term to match our neighbors’ foreign acquired capabilities. However, if we wanted to, we could possibly join the Turks in developing a home grown long range SAM. As Turkey is buying S-400 and Almaz-Antey will give technical support, it’s safe to assume that the range and characteristics of this new Turkish missile will be similar to S-400. Given our less than optimal scientific and industrial base, joint development is a short cut route to manufacturing quality systems that is the need of the hour. Few countries can afford a totally indigenous national effort. Even Europe does a lot of joint development and induction to bring in economies of scale and reduce costs. It will also neatly dovetail with Aviation City and other similar Pakistani efforts.

  • Steve

    A slightly off topic political/historic reply if I may, as I am fed up with emotional overexcited fanboys praising India’s weapon buying and ruining every thread here. The pattern is the same that according to Indians, India has bought so many different expensive weapons, Pakistan should just surrender its rights to justice and nationhood. Unfortunately for them on a historic and political level, Pakistan being the inheritor state of the Mughal empire holds India in utter contempt and will never do that. History is replete with examples where numbers have not always decided outcomes of conflict. Pakistan’s capabilities may one day match it’s intentions…

    • FAUJI JAT

      Mughal’s are foreigners, they are Turks while Pakistanis are former Hindus local peoples but are forcefully converted to Islam by same Mughals.

      • kaster

        If Hindus had been force fully converted then there would have not been a single Hindu alive in the Subcontinent now.

        • FAUJI JAT

          Yes Hindus are forcefully converted to Islam and this is the reality that despite being under the so called Islamic rule they never able to convert all Indians to islam and the result is 800million Hindus in indian subcontinent today. All those converted Hindus are now living in Pakistan.Indian and Pakistanis are blood brothers while all the previous Islamic rulers of indian subcontinent are Turks or afghans.

          • Aaif khan

            Hello my Love, You forgot the 17 year old Arab, called Muhammad bin Qasim. He was an Arab not Afghan or Turk.
            and Mughals rule wasn’t a Islamic rule(except the Aurangzeb rule) In Islam there is No monarchy while Mughals were Monarch. Islam gives you the right to elect ruler, what it doesn’t give, is the right to legislate law(which Akbar did by introducing his principles of deen e ilahi)

            and regarding this myth of forceful Hindu conversion see my above comment.

            Pakistanis never want to compare themselves with Indians. They are happy, it is the Indians who always do. Just go onto any web portal or social media, they are obsessed with pakistan and are full of hatred while you don’t see such rhetoric among Pakistanis.

          • Khalid bin Walid

            There is no such thing as “forcefully conversion” in Islam. Islam prohibits that, a forcefully converted isn’t accepted by the communty nor by God, because Islam means peace by submission to the will of God, which is only given when the shahada of the person is righteous.

          • Steve

            Respect! For your comment and your name.

          • For you to claim that ‘Hindus’ were converted forcefully, you have to prove that Hinduism existed as a religion. That debate of whether Hinduism is a religion or not still rages on where Hindu preachers themselves claim Hinduism is not a religion. If Hinduism isn’t a religion then how can anyone be forcefully converted out of it?

      • Aaif khan

        I didn’t want to waste time but have to answer this.

        Mughals were foreigners… And so The Aryans (now Hindus) So please leave India and go back to Europe where your belief came.

        Mughals were not even devout Muslims (except Aurangzeb). It is the Islamic belief that converted idol worshippers into Islam. If Mughals wanted to convert everyone than they had such powers to convert whole India by force. If they had applied force and failed to convert Hindus than they would atleast destroy the Temples (which you see today) Similarly, there were no Mughals in Indonesia and Malaysia that forced people over there to convert into Islam. It is beleif of oneness of God that convince people to REVERT back to Islam.

        Even Americans And Europeans are reverting back to Islam, I want to Ask you who are forcing the powerful Europeans and American citizens to convert(in your toungue) to Islam?

        Like you, Our ancestors were also idol worshippers and today we thanks to God for showing us the right path.

      • We are proud to be muslims and generations of muslims.

    • More

      Pakistan History? I BELIEVE ITS LESS THAN 70 YEAR OLD LOL

      • Aaif khan

        What is the history of India? If you say 5,000 or 3,000? If so, than it means you are seeing the issue from the prism of belief and faith and NOT Nation-State theory.

        Actually India’s history dates back to the time of immemorial because idol worship has been prevalent since then.:) btw, your belief is respected.

        • The biggest joke here is that India is an English word which British imposed on them and they still live with this shame. Heck, the word India comes from river Indus which flows through Pakistan predominantly and originates in China.

      • India is only 70 year old too. What do you have to do with British India? Your status in British India was nothing more than a coolie or a slave. And before British India, we had a Mughal Empire in South Asia which was led by Muslim noblemen. Again, what exactly is yours here?

        • Steve

          Not much do to do with S-400 and apologies to the mods for sidetracking the discussion. Maverick, you are absolutely right. India ruled by Hindu majority is less than 70 years old. They took over from the British. Before that the ruling Muslim noblemen of the Delhi Sultanate and later Mughal descent ruled most of old Hindustan. Again nothing to do with Hindus except some intermarriage with Hindu princesses as tribute or alliance building mostly by Akbar. There was of course conversion, mostly by Sufis and others. In 1947 the remnants of the ruling class from northern British India especially Punjab and UP migrated to Pakistan, as did the ruling class of Mughal and Afghan descent from Bengal. Muslims from the south and center and some who could or would not leave despite the pogroms were left behind and formed the 20%. This was forced on Muslims by Radcliffe and Mountbatten in league with Nehru tricking Jinnah out of one half of the two largest Muslim majority provinces and also the capital, leaving in his own words a ‘moth eaten’ Pakistan. It also precipitated the Kashmir problem. That’s why Pakistan rightfully claims to be the inheritor state of the great Mughals, and does not want to be lumped with India even though large numbers are of course descendents of converts from old Hindustan. It’s interesting that there is a strange and acrimonious dichotomy in the current Indian narrative, with half claiming Mughals as ‘Indian’ and the other half who are now a majority hating them as foreigners who imposed Islam on India for a very long time.

    • Headstrong

      ‘Pakistan being the inheritor state of the Mughal empire’
      Not quite. This is the fallacy you people propagate to motivate your lot. Unfortunately for you, as many Muslims reside in India as those in Pakistan. The seat of power of the Mughal empire remains in India as do most of their achievements. The Muslims of India do as well or as badly as the rest – notwithstanding the efforts of RSS chaddi type thugs, who are in the minority. India is justifiably proud of its minorities and their achievements. In any case, by any yardstick, India has treated its minorities much better than others in the neighbourhood. Of course, to justify the ill-fated TNT decision, you people have to resort to that chimera. Not that India’s complaining – good riddance is the refrain.
      ‘History is replete with examples where numbers have not always decided outcomes of conflict’
      Not in the history of you lot though 🙂
      ‘Pakistan’s capabilities may one day match it’s intentions…’
      Of course, one must not lose hope. So what if such hopes have been dashed in your short history. One must think big. Who knows, capturing the erstwhile seat of power may come true. Then you people could truly claim to be the ‘inheritor state of the Mughal empire’. No harm in dreaming 🙂

      You may not be listening, ‘Steve’, but for those who are, know this. India is not a revanchist power. It has no interest in grabbing any of your territory. It has no interest in ‘hegemony’. India has multitudes of problems and wants to be left alone to deal with them. Historically, India has been slow to react to provocations. But when it does, it will be ferocious. 65 was an example. Kargil another. This is not true just of this government, but of all previous others. To his credit, Modi attempted to reach out. It didn’t work. Hence the aggression. Both countries have too much to do to spend limited resources on useless ventures. But, if it has to be given back, it will be. In spades.

      • Steve

        The discussion is going historical where Indians are on a weak wicket so to speak and don’t know if the mods allow it. Why don’t Indians build a golden statue of Aurangzeb rather than that little rebel (or terrorist take your pick) Shivaji. Do you not claim Aurangzeb as ‘Indian’ too. Every Indian forum is full of hatred and bile about him. So your long argument unfortunately does not add up. After all he was the last of the Great Mughals. As far as Muslims lot in India is concerned one only has to look at Kashmir who’s Muslims live under your control and Gujarat to see how ‘proud’ you are of them. You’re PM was RSS as well it is widely believed. It’s easy to claim you are not revanchist AFTER forcibly occupying Kashmir, Junagarh, Hyderabad, Goa, Sikkim etc the list goes on. Try to convince Westerners that India and Pakistan are not enmeshed in a conflict grounded in religion, as they do not know you guys, or maybe they do but are just using you against China . A compatriot of yours on this very board is being more truthful when he says Mughals were Turks who converted locals to Islam and intermarried to form the ruling Muslim community of old India, which mostly migrated to Pakistan in 1947. Please reply (or not) without emotional or angry rejoinders. Back to the Turks S-400 I believe. Lol

        • Headstrong

          There are numerous Indian rulers who do not have statues built for them. Doesn’t make them less ‘Indian’. Aurangzeb’s one of them. Shivaji was a regional ruler who defied the Mughals. Stands to reason why a region would idolise him.
          Aurangzeb is not revered in India. But, by any definition, he was ‘Indian’. Howsoever much RSS types may want, one cannot change history. Btw, do you know there are two fairly big towns named after him? And, try as they might, the fringe haven’t been able to rename them?
          Come the day when India has to learn how to treat its minorities from you people…
          And for all your talk about history, if you do not know the difference between Kashmir, Junagarh, Hyderabad, Goa and Sikkim by now, you’ll never know it. Btw, did you leave out the bit about the frceful annexation of Balochistan erroneously?
          The compatriot of mine you refer to is also right. Islam was not local. It was brought to ‘India’. Yet, today India is home to the second largest number of Muslims. They are entirely Indian. Just as Indian Christians, Parsis and Jews are entirely Indian. You should listen to Owaisi rebut you people on your turf on your claim to be spokespersons for Muslims on the subcontinent. Not one of my favourite politicians, but someone who fights for Muslim rights (sometimes obnoxiously) but is proudly Indian. The fringe, who are the darlings in your media so that stereotypes can be reinforced, are merely that – a fringe. Vocally disproportionate to their number. The idea of India is far deeper, yet more amorphous, than these people believe (let alone you people), and this phase too shall pass.
          Let’s not talk here of how a country can be used by another. Indeed, you people should know all about being a rentier state, so lets not go there.
          Another suggestion, ‘Steve’ – let’s not talk about ‘weak wickets’. At least while the Champions Trophy is in progress 🙂

          • Are you high? How can anyone in South Asia be “Indian” when the word itself never existed prior to the British invasion of South Asia? British India was a colonial venture and it created the colonial “Indian” identity that you live with today. The word India and Indian is not local, they are English, so why do you accept them? Likewise, Hindu is a Persian word, it isn’t even mentioned in “Hindu” scriptures. Kindly educate yourself instead of sprouting non-sense.

            And Muslims of South Asia including Pakistan can rightfully lay claim to the Mughal empire. Heck, the Hindu RSS itself does not want anything to do with it and seeks to erase the Islamic past.

          • Headstrong

            Well done. Your teachers would be proud of you 🙂

          • Steve

            Why do you come out with irrelevant one liners when you run out of things to say, and are exposed in a discussion. If this is an attempt at sarcasm it’s totally pathetic. Is that the Indian (Hindu) equivalent of cleverness lol

          • Headstrong

            It certainly was sarcasm and you people know exactly what I mean, don’t you ‘Steve’? And with every comment, you people confirm it 🙂

          • Its sad to see you in such deep denial. 🙂

          • Headstrong

            You people can’t stomach the fact that India is pluralistic with as many Muslims as Pakistan. You’ve yet to come terms to the fact that your TNT has been blown to smithereens (SO to speak). You have to convince yourselves that India is about to come apart – something you’ve been told is inevitable for the last 70 years, but is yet to happen. You people have been sold the line that you ‘deserve’ to rule from Delhi. You just don’t get why Indian Muslims want nothing to do with you people. After all, why are the rest of the faithful so bereft of faith in the self-professed savior of Islam in the region? This is an affront to the people of the ‘Land of the Pure’. Therefore you have to cling to the pathetic observations of an imposter who spouts snippets from your own media and has already been outed on this very forum. Denial is something that defines you people 🙂
            To paraphrase what I told him, you people are beneath contempt.

          • Steve

            No no we are your enemies and I hope you recognise that. We love it when you make pathetic arguments essentially regurgitated RSS anti-Muslim anti-Pakistan propoganda, and self-declare to have ‘exposed’ or ‘outed’ your adversaries to widespread mirth among us. As the first step we want Kashmiris to be free of your cruelty and oppression, and I’m waiting for you to start arguing how much Kashmiris love India and RSS, especially when they wave Pakistan flags hahaha. We know well the few cowering Muslims of your country who try to be more Indian than the Hindus for self advancement (Marouf/Owasi types) or self preservation like the majority of Muslims, change long standing practices to stay alive, and run pathetically to your dysfunctinal judiciary with each new atrocity to face years of obfuscation. Aaif’s observations are an eye opener for people who don’t know. Your rants mean nothing to us and any ‘clever’ arguments by you and your kind in your shrill hysterical media will never in any way thwart us from our task. Unfortunately the subcontinent faces generations of confrontation and war because of your kind. I think this had been discussed to death lol.

          • ??Aaif khan

            The real name is sanatani or vedic dharm.
            I heard that Persian used to tease them, saying ” woh toh dekho hindu Aa raha hai Hindu, hindu” (here you go Hindu comes Hindu Hindu)

            Just like we used to tease our friend like, pappu aa gaya pappu pappu (and now he is known as pappu rather than his real name)

            Similarly, this is what something happened with our sanatani or vedic brothers. They are now living with name that was used to tease them.
            – No hatred for them. Their beleif is respected by heart.

      • Aaif khan

        worng: the Mughal remain outsider atleast till the time of Sher shah suri as the mother of Humayun and than his wife/mother of Sher shah suri were both Persian.

        If India own the right to inherit Mughal rule than why in academic books Mughals are portrayed as Monsters. I know because I have given examination from ICSE board.

        Yes, India is proud of treating Muslims with humiliation. babri mosque, Gujarat genocide, Mumbai massacre, malegaon balst, Ajmer blast and now these cow vigilantes who carry out regular campaign of killing are some best examples. And the perpetrators have occupied highest govt office, senior party leader advani/home miniater rajnath Singh/ PM.Modi/shivsena, MNS leaders who were behind massacre of Muslims in 1993 are now ruling Maharashtra and were given state funeral> balasaheb./ similarly, perpetrators of malegaon blast, Ajmer blast and Makkah masjid blast in Hyderabad are now free. not to mention cow vigilantes, they have given a free hand or license to carry out regular killings in RSS India in the name of Gau mata in a secular INDIA. 500 yr old Babri mosque demolition was the biggest slap on secular INDIA.

        – And now this nation wide ban on slaughter of animal for religious purpose which include cows camles Buffaloes Bullock’s etc /// this is how India treat it’s minorities. Very lovingly.

        Just 2months ago these hindutva shills were shouting anti Muslim slogan right in front of our mosque. ” shav jalana padehga, dafna-na nahi” (if you want to live in India, you have to cremate body and not bury.) And others. Okay, Leave aside these small issue. Muslims in India go though this everyday specially in U.P and M.P and Bihar.

        The who promised to be the most anti-muslims are treated with respects.

        Look at his double standard, he is a trained propagandist. One of the common method of propaganda is to lie BIG and people will eventually beleive it. Another is to emphasize on peace loving posture while keep exporting Terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan and appoint divisive forces(altaf hussain and sehikh mujib) and on republic day it’s PM say’s ” we will help to free the people of Balochistan and sindudesh fom the slavery of pakistan” while their army chief and NSA openly advocates hybrid war on Pakistan.
        – What a peaceful neighbour you guys have got.
        Its former RAW cheif says, RAW was formed only for one purpose and that is to disintegrate paksitan.

        the reality is that the brahmins sitting in U.P did never accepted Pakistan as a Sovereign Nation and still aspire to colonize it through new means as they are doing in Nepal and Bangladesh.

        India has always been an agressor while Pakistanis just struggle for their survival.

        • Steve

          I am grateful for you giving us a comprehensive look into the Indian (Hindu/RSS) mind. As outsiders we do understand what is going on but a personal insight is something that only someone inside India can give. I agree India has behaved like an aggressor and dangerous for its Muslim minority (Owasi types notwithstanding), and for any small neighbor who does not become a subservient satellite, particularly Pakistan which has been dismembered once by the same aggressor. Hence the need for a sharp nuclear sword to keep the enemy at bay and investments we are forced to make in all these advanced weapons we talk about on this forum.

      • Aaif khan

        He pretend to whine about RSS on the other hand, keep praising RSS PM modi and also his anti muslim domestic policies.

        Is RSS a minority in INDIA? This questionable. RSS political wing BJP is ruling the Nation with 338 seats out of 543 in Lok sabha(lower house of Parliament) with the support of 15 regional parties. And is ruling 12 state out of 29.(almost half)
        We see RSS policies are being introduce like cow vigilantes, Nationwide ban on animal slaughter for religious purpose, uniform civil law, construction of RAM Mandir at babri mosque, abrogation of Article 370, Ban on conversion by banning Muslims scholars and Islamic TV channels peaceTV.
        Aren’t these RSS policies? RSS is ruling the Nation and is forming the policies both domestic and foreign.

  • Keyser

    I think what is required is a counter to systems like the S 400. Knowing how to defeat a system is as important as having a matching system. The US navy has developed systems based around the Growler but The Turks have the KORAL system which was tested against the S300. It will be interesting in light of the new defence cooperation whether this system is looked at….

  • Steve

    I think that Pakistan does need longer range SAMS to reach far into India, at least as far as our Erieyes can see, which will be a few hundred kilometres depending on how far inland we fly them to avoid Meteor and S-400. There needs to be ability to engage fighters and AWACS far inland. Situations arise and we should not put an artificial limit in our abilities. Tactics and how we use and defend these assets requires extensive training, which luckily has never been an issue with Pakistan.

  • Aaif khan

    I think system like s400 is more suitable for Pakistan than India.

  • mh1975

    Its seems as thought the lunatics have over taken the asylum, why would turkey buy such an expensive system that gives Russia a belligerent state, complete knowledge of turkeys airspace. This deal has more to do with political considerations than military effectiveness, why would nato oppose a Chinese system but then agree to a Russian system. Its seems as though US is using turkey as a carrot to entice Russia into a grand alliance against china

  • Shafiq Ahmed

    Pakistan should pursue long range anti radiation missiles and 5th Generation Aircrafts to counter Indian S 400 SAM.Also Pakistan should joinTFX program which our brotherly country Turkey has already invited us to join.Turkey is Superpower of Islamic World and will be a world superpower Inshallah.Turkey is our Muslim Ally and more trustworthy than any other country

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