Alan Warnes, an aviation journalist and leading Pakistan Air Force (PAF) watcher, recently reported that the PAF’s JF-17s have logged more than 19,000 operational fight hours since the fighter’s induction into active service in 2011. There are 65 JF-17s in the PAF (allocated to three operational fighter squadrons and a training unit belonging to Combat Commanders School).
Although the dual-seat JF-17B is slated for induction by April 2017, Alan Warnes was able to learn from PAF officials that the first JF-17B will be delivered to Pakistan by December of this year.
Elsewhere, Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production, Rana Tanveer Hussain, told Pakistani media outlets that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) was in talks with “seven or eight” countries over the possibility of selling JF-17s. Details into which countries were not disclosed.
Comment & Analysis
It will be interesting to see how the introduction of the JF-17B will impact those talks. The dual-seat JF-17B is expected to strengthen PAC’s ability to market the Thunder to prospective buyers.
Not only will it offer a familiar means for training and converting to the JF-17, but the PAF could even market the JF-17B as a stand-alone solution. For example, the JF-17B will essentially be used as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) or fighter conversion unit (FCU) platform in the PAF. PAC could market the JF-17B as a low-cost LIFT, one with a comprehensive training package involving high-fidelity simulators as well.
Alternatively, integration with a competitive targeting pod and a wide range of air-to-ground munitions (such as laser-guided bombs, missiles and rockets) and stand-off weapons (such as anti-ship cruise missiles and glide-bombs) could position the JF-17B as a low-cost attack fighter.
For air forces with limited funding and/or access to Western goods, a JF-17B strike platform could be an interesting means to both replace far less capable older jets (such as the MiG-21) as well as affordably build modern qualitative capabilities – such as precision-strike and anti-ship warfare.
In fact, packaging an end-to-end solution that includes various air-to-ground munitions could open up an opportunity for Pakistan to vertically integrate customers, and thus, open up additional opportunities for the Pakistani defence industry.
By being the primary source of the JF-17’s munitions, organizations such as Global Industrial Defence Solutions (GIDS), National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), and Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) could enhance the JF-17’s value proposition as well as increase the revenue accrued from its sale. This could also be way to offset the cost of raising local production capacities for munitions, particularly expensive ones such as anti-ship missiles or new-generation air-to-air missiles.
I wish Rana Tanveer Hussain could be specific. Is it 7 countries or 8 countries or perhaps 7.5? This kind of ambiguity might suit some of the “thara” class Pakistanis (Eg. In response to age query, “yehi koi bees puchees hogi”. (Excuse my Urdu if wrong, Urdu/Punjabi is not my forte)) but does not sound too professional coming from a government minister.
Anyway, now I’ve got my little grumble out the way, the figure if only 7 is still interesting. There is possibility of perhaps at lease one potential customer as yet not previously mentioned.
Huh So what? the almighty Tejas has had 30,000 simulated and recreational flight hours in a flood lit water tank without a single fishy incident. Now that’s progress. Troll on
8 Tejas have had 5000 hours of flights so JF17 has some grave problems
May be Pakistani apprentice needs better training at lathe, jigs for kit assembly of 58% aerospace alumina slabs imported from cheen
u consciously missed a key point here, it was not about flying hours but the “operational flying hours”, the hours flown by JF17 thunder after becoming formally a part of Pakistan Air force in late 2000’s, right now only 2 tejas are part of Indian air force and that too are mainly used for testing and are not able to be deployed anywhere in the battle field
Those 8 aircraft of Tejas are IOC compliant as they have been upgraded to IOC version!
Pak block 1 lacked BVR and block 2 which was introduced in 2015 is not fully bvr compliant
So Dont compare Indian standards with Pakistan airfrorce. For IAF to induct Tejas, FOC must have BVR compliant!
Hindustani air force standards call for 55% down time of its entire fleet, and special privileges to do sorties on TATA truck.
Something JF-17 can never do. Hence Tejas wins. You win.
total availability of fleet is up to 55-60%..
Su30 have improved from 50 to 60 % in last12 months.
Russians Pak Fa deal is dependent upon the maintenance ability of SU30MKI to reach 75% over next 18month failing which they ll be demoted from future contract
For an air arm like hindustani air force, it needs 200% availability to go up against air force like PAF, with 500% more planes. Otherwise world will witness new records in making.
availability is down 45%. pilot to jet ratio is 0.8:1.
Ab lar lo jang.
pak have 80 f16 & 70-80 tin cans junk fighter17
Mig29UPG,Mig29K naval,upgraded Mirage2000 all around make250 fighter sufficient to take down each of your bird.
Hold on ,India has many pilots graduate since2014.
Ratio has increased to 1.3
The ratio has increased just like GDP figures have been increased (read fabricated). lol.
Listen to your own logic. Until last year the ratio was 0.8:1. Today it has increased to 1.3.
Yeah that explains the kind of pilots being passed out after giving them a balloon ride and declaring them pilots.
Stop making fun of yourself.
Come on Jigsaww be fair. All f those MIG-21 crashes where the pilots have survived has been improving pilot:plane ratio every year for the past two decades.
that must be it.
Moron iaf gets 300 pilots yearly
assume 33% go to combat aircraft which make 100 pilot addition.
yeah i suppose hindustan has also stopped retiring its pilots in an effort to increase the ratio. lol. every one is counted.
sab JAHAAZ hain.
There are 3 operational squadrons of Thunder vs none for Tejas, time to wake up and smell the coffee genius
First thing first, what does BVR capability has to do with operational hours ? Those 5000 hours you are talking about are the total flying hours spent on different tests on tejas, those are called “Flying Hours” not “Operational Hours”, the 2 jet tegas squadron may only have 50-60 “Operational hours” since 2015, Secondly JF17 Thunder block I lacks BVR missiles ? well last time when i checked the defense resources, Blocked I did have a perfected BVR ability and it has it since it became operation in 2011, Block II is even superior, on the other hand tejas conducted its very first BVR test 2 months ago, we do not require a certificate from u to verify the BVR capability of JF17 Thunder, let me quote an authentic source for you, the report of India’s Comptroller and Auditor General is a slap upon the face of “modi Sarkar” and tejas project where he mentioned that tejas MKI is “Operationally deficient”, even after acquiring the IOC 2, it still failed to meet the requirements of Indian air force, the FOC was due in December 2015 which was deferred as tejas could not meet the basic requirements but in the mean time thanks to wikipedia where Indians can edit at will and show tejas as “Operational” and boost about its abilities, the ground realty is that, again let me quote the report again “The persistent shortcomings, some of which were still under design, development, and testing, include excessive weight, engine thrust, reduced internal fuel capacity, non-compliance of all-weather operations, non-achievement of single-point defueling fuel system protection, and pilot protection. They restrict the “operational efficiency and survivability of the aircraft, thereby limiting its employability when inducted into IAF squadrons,It is also deficient in electronic warfare (EW) capabilities as specified by the IAF, as the self-protection jammer could not be fitted on the aircraft due to space constraints”
Tejas programme is at least thirty years old. still there are few tejas. JF-17 programme is just 15 years old still paksitan has 66 unit flying and functional. So definitelyTejas has some grave problems.
Not your fault
You r in a nation with experience of 1000 years of slavery
Its clearly mentioned operational flight hours
Tejas has counted 150,000 hours on TATA truck by now.
And we are comparing it to JF-17 19.000 hours? Huh!
Sadly pak doesn’t even have local home made trucks.
by the way mirage2000 also sits on tata trucks besides tejas in Republic day parade as they r single engine planes
@disqus_GfShjhCzln:disqus you just owned mate big time. We pakistanis don’t have scary dreams about your mighty forces. You on the other end are still consistantly obsessing over even little 8 F-16s. Even according to Alan Warnes, a respected aviation expert who himself says one of the IAF officers told him that IAF is very much in awe of PAF’s progress on JF-17.
Take your non-sense elsewhere.
Alan warnes is full time lobbyist for pak air force.
He is provided with booze , women & free cruise on paki airline’s
Google/twitter some of his pics
why shall india allow its American ally to fund free F16 to Pakistan
india has no problems with pak buying any weapons from its hard earned money but pak being supporter of afgan taliban terrorist has no right to any of those American aid
On that logic, hindustan will find it hard to get anything being the largest recepient of USAD and largest fabricator of GDP.
Pak american alliance is breaking. You did not do any thing. You’re just making use of it in your hate because you were always meant to as hindustanis.
The thing with US is always, they treat you as allies and friends so long as their interests lie with someone.
Pakistan and US alliance will remain shaky. It is up to US to break the alliance if it wants. Pakistan is not doing that.
At least the world knows how what pakistan has been saying that US has been lying about its operation on OBL where pakistan was the one to have captured and prisoned him. Thanks to seymour hersh.
Anyone who talks in favor of Pakistan is branded “full time lobbyist”.
That’s how hindustan rolls! hell yeah!
India makes the tweety bird airframe……many other parts are of foreign origin.The radar is Israeli, Engine is American, Ejection seat is British, Canopy is Canadian (woo hooo), Russian Cannon, Russian and Israeli missiles, HMDS is Israeli…..I mean, it is mostly foreign stuff assembled in India in a French Mirage copy airframe. Now India did make improvements on the airframe, but its not as Indian as you think it is. Regardless, one is already in service and other is 40+ years in the making and still isn’t ready. Stop bragging about stolen tech. INDIAN
And being ambassadors of ISIS in afghan dirty game and helping shitty run away pak Taliban in Afghanistan?
Pak is not vlind and will bleed any scum shit especially indians in return. Modi scums
As a Shia, I detest all wahabi and ISIS equally.
Afghan is bombing both ISIS takfeeri and Pakistani pawns- Taliban with equal doses
Ur not a shia. U r a hindu and a stinky INDIAN. Reason, u dont detest Israeli while shias are ahead in there hate for israel. So shut ut stinky mouth.
Ur f.. k ajit doval has invited isis in iok to sabktage and taint the legitimate kashmiri resistance. U hindu scum
I m an indian shia. I hv relatives in pakistan karachi. They repent of leaving india.
Pak is hell for them as it seems
I ll support my country partnership with israeli.
religion is secondary & personal thing for me.
mate u have set up a trap for yourself here and it is going to get nasty for you, really very nast ! I am a Shia, a native Urdu speaker who lives in Lahore, my great grand parents and grand parents too came from Indian state of Patiala, to be more specific, from Samana urban area where still there is a shrine of a Syed but here you are, a Shia who loves israel ? well that is enough for us to know who u are, a hindu zionist ! in Pakistan Shia are famous for burning american n israeli flags, to demonstrate for the rights of Palestinian people and occupation, Shia in Kashmir are the ones who resist the Indian occupation forces specially in Moharam, u can pike a thing from here and there and pretend to be a Shia in a desperate attempt to cover your ass but it never changes the realty, you see my pic here ? yes it is a black Kufia which i was wearing for Al Quds day n here u say that u are a Shia and love israel ? u have sold your self quite cheaply and blown away the cover
There never was any cover for this guy! As I said before, even without his claims to be a Shia he alone generates the stink of 10 Hindus.
Don’t be a dead beat here !! And what it has to do your being shia or low cast Hindu with topic at hand? Don’t be so stupid and just stick to topic and don’t try to put unnecessary weight in convincing us how much you love your country. No body gives a rat’s arse if you support India’s partnership with Israel. BTW why your relatives “repent” and not regret.You understand the difference?
You are a hater on so many levels i lost count. That is your problem.
u and Shia ? i am a Shia and also an activist, i know how a Shia behaves, u are not a Shia but a Hindu zionist filled with crap, if u had been a Shia thn u would have known that most of the Pakistanis are not wahabi or pro taliban but Sunni who became the biggest target of taliban, u have learnt few words from different blogs and now u try to portray yourself as an expert
I’m pretty convinced he is an imposter.
I’ve seen plenty on internet, hindustanis faking to be Pakistanis and what not.
What a moron you are but for your sake GTFOH and experience how your days go by without us, I mean without writing garbage.Probably you will jump off the nearest bridge in your mean poop color robe….lol
Sadly this is where his rozi roti comes from. So all the non sense has to be thrown here.
Fly? Every jet can fly. What the world is forgetting that no other jet has been able to do what Tejas has done in marvel of aviation engineering. Exhibiting extreme capabilities of being on TATA trucks for 150000 hours without falling off. Hindustani illar billar engineers have done exceptional work on calculating center of gravity for tejas, something JF-17 does not even come closer to.
home made LOL.
First show me made in pak truck.
ur country ranked out of 50 in manufacturing while latest western ranking have placed india among sixth manufacturer.
aray bhai chori aur bheek ke technology hay. itni aukaat nahi tumhari.
jesa naam wesa kaam.
Tata total sales is half of your gdp.
Their market caps is 2 times ur gdp.
Theyt make 100 types of models for automobile & own jaguar land rover, Korean Daewoo motors & many companies worldwide
Good for Tejas.
But no toilets. According to “Economist International” more than half of Indian population goes out in the open. That is 670 million people including and most likely you.So what good it is as you people (and so many) take a dump out in the open. India is a big $hithole !! Shame on you
Shame on you for being sixth, when you are second in population!
USA has chose to keep india in list of intellectual preperty shame scheme because it cheats and lies so much. So shut the hell up
usa also has swiss russia china besides india
They are all major competitors to usa.
pak needs to make something before
for being considered in that list
Sadly for you pak has bedford, hino pak, nissan and mazda home made trucks. Now dont tell me that japanese and koreans r working on it. Scum
cheeni assembled maal
Thanks God. Atleast its not INDIAN GANDA MAAL
This modi told me a few weeks ago that he was “told” by someone tht jf has so far logged around 7000 hours so far. Now that the cat is out, he is countering it witj an exagerated figure of 5000hrs for 8 aircraft. Preposterous
Um mm I did cater for that in the pool hours.
Another tall claim by a hindu.
Hey, why was my previous comment deleted?! There is all kinds of abusive language and insults posted in the comments section and allowed to stay. My comment was in comparison quite innocent!
I didn’t delete anything anywhere.
Thanks. I was mildly critical of a Pak government minister but in civilised language. The comment was “flagged” for a few minutes pending “approval” before getting removed.
hmm … interesting. I’ll look to see what’s going on.
The comment is still “there” somewhere. When I load the article on my mobile I see it as the first comment but on the mobile this display is only momentary before the comments are properly loaded where it then reverts to the normal displayed comments as seen on my laptop. If it helps, I can try sending it to you tomorrow on your email address to help you investigate.
Ok, my disqus account tells me it is “detected as spam”. I have clicked “not spam”. Let’s see if it displays now.
HI can you add link (on main page) to old articles than the ones shown on main page? It stops after that list.
I find the search box very useful for finding old articles.
well i wanted to go back without searching. 🙁
I think Pakistanis must stop falling into Indian trap of comparing JF17 Thunder with Tejas let alone the entire program, it will require at least 2025 to produce a considerable number of tejas and to make its Medium weight aircraft version hit the production line, the ground reality is that this year 25 JF17 thunders are going to be produced completing its Block II and four squadrons while on the other hand Indian air force is constantly refusing to induct tejas, modi sarkar is forcing tejas on the throat of Indian air force in the name of “make in India”, Indian air force is already facing the decency of 8-10 squadrons, its legacy air crafts need replacement before 2020 and half of the fleet of SU-30 is grounded because of the maintenance issues and spare lack of parts. Till 2020, 125 JF17 Thunders will be produced and in the same time only 25-30 tejas will be produced, that says a lot about the utility of both the platforms for their air forces
Your full program & project management is dependent on cheeni engineers and project planners.
So its futile comparing a local Indian developing platform with imported Jf17 where Cheen does all of your work
India is targeting to make only 20-25 MK1 trainer until 2019 & they will switch to Aesa MK1-A version whose development is top priority for HAL.
HAL aims to mass producing 18-20 Tejas MK1-A from 2019. So they have 3 yrs to ramp up production and outsource most of the work to Indian pvt sectors!
2024-2025 is probably target to make MK-2 naval version which is the only MK-2 GE414 program currently running under jurisdiction of Indian navy while airforce can make fast buck in brokerage with 250 mill$/unit rafale
the tejas will be made by hal at at rate of 16 pa with the eventuality of 24 and a second line made privately the second line is only theory. the mk2 will have the ge414 engine which will be made in india for use on the mk2 and the amca.
the jf-17 though will be produced at 24 pa in Pakistan whilst china will make them at a unknown rate. the jf-17 like the l-15,j-31, and jl-9 its made to be modular. granted the tejas is a good plane but the way it was managed messed it up big time.
well for the sake of air craft utility and effectiveness, lets consider that JF17 Thunder is a “full program & project management is dependent on cheeni engineers and project planners” (which of course it is not), does it make any difference in the effectiveness of JF17 Thunder, does it hinder JF17 Thunder from performing a task which it is supposed to perform ? No not at all ! On the other hand we have tejas, lets consider it is an indigenous program by India (India still cant even produce landing gear for tejas), does being an indigenous aircraft makes it more effective to perform ? well not at all ! Your rationale behind all that stupid nonsense is that “tejas are bound to be a better air craft because it was developed (still under development since 33 years) by India and JF17 Thunder is bound to fail because it was a Chinese project, well to break your dreams, the world does not work upon this rationale, when the two machines meet each other, the better one wins, That all bla bla bla stuff about JF17 Thunder from Indians is to provide a cover to the failure of tejas project in general and their shattered false pride in particular, all that non sense about “Cheeni maal”, “GDP stats”, “indigenous project”, ” No industrial base”, “beggar country” is a fruitless attempt, in reality if tejas project had been so successful, butt hurt Indians would not have been here to bash the success of JF17 Thunder
who do u think is producing landing gear for tejas
you should ask from your self that Pakistan has 58% rights of JF17 Thunder project but its share is only 10% ? do u think Chinese are that dump ? secondly in tejas just like landing gear, pilot seat, ejection system, electronic suit, helmet, fire fighting kit, engine so on and so forth, every thing is imported and India has no share in it but major concern of Pakistan air force is never been tejas, the concern is only how to counter that operational version of Su 30 through the mix of Block 52 F-16s, Upgraded Mirages and Block II of JF17 Thunders
58 % airframe is what kamra claims.
airframe barely cost 15- 20 % of aircraft cost
Tin junk fighter17 can only compete with mig21 bison.
Drdo have been working on most of imported system..
Landing gear is totally indigenous.
canopy;engine actuators, on board support gas generation system r already indeginized
quartz radome & refuelling probe be manufactured by tata advanced materials
for Block I, 58 % work done was in Kamra, for the Block II, they are made in Kamra which is why it was called Indigenous when the first squadron rolled of Block II out in December 2015, at the end of 2016, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex will produce up to 25 units but on the other hand HAL will be desperately trying to assemble 4 jets from the imported materials,there are so many errors in tejas projects, tejas will not be ready to deploy before 2020 and only thn Indian air force would consider them in good numbers and before Indian air force inducts tejas in good numbers, it is impossible for import it in the future, how long u would fabricate the figures and bashing to cover up ur asses ? well for us, the “Cheeni Maal” works perfectly but ur indigenous jet is still required to get FOI and still in the testing phase
But i thought u told me that ur father told u that pak jf have logged only 700 hours since its induction. Any thing to add worthwhile.
Tejas is not even the last thing on PAF’s list to be concerned about. It’s the Dalit of Hindustani air force (not acceptable, not appreciated, everyone wants it out) and will not be ready before 2030 in an acceptable form and will be anyway be obsolete by then. In any case, Tejas will never be allowed to carry out cross border ops and will most likely be kept on southern and western sectors, away from offences.
What PAF will be and needs to look forward to counter are the Rafales, if signed and the S-400 systems, again if signed. PAF will find it difficult to counter the Rafales without an LRSAM installation and JF-17s only. The block 52’s may be technically sanctioned by US in an event of war.
In the short run, what Pakistan needs to induct to comprehensively outmatch the S-400 and Rafale acquisitions are two squadrons of an equivalent fighter, anything from SU-35 to Eurofighter, or invest alternatively in J-10C (an unlikely happening for now). In addition to this upgraded HQ9 SAMs are needed to establish a similar area denial to Hindustani air force. In the long run, PAF will need dedicated 5th gen platforms, most likely the J-31 or TFX by 2030. These machines have all the ability to take out S-400 sites without being detected. There is possibility with current 4th gen fighters as well, but with higher risks. Another thing Pakistan can easily do is to trick and empty the S-400 defences by launching a swarm of dummy UCAVs to S-400. Once defences are depleted in few hours, actual air strikes can follow to take out the S-400 sites using LACM and other platforms.
Pskistan has its eye on new hindustani deals and will unveil alternative acquisitions very soon.
@jigsaww:disqus i totally agree with you in this regard. I think we will see some major acquisitions around the 2020 deadline of retirement of old mirages & F-7.
Yes we will in light of golden rule that every hindustani capability will be assessed and provided a suitable response to.
the Dalit for Indian air force, hahahahahaha, well that was a great one, about the India’s fifth generation air craft program, there own 5th generation program will again end up like tejas and India is already out of Russia’s 5th generation program which has made it harder for them to get S-400 technology, now what options do they have for 5th generation air craft ? their only international friend israel does not have any plan to enter that alley so the option they will have around 2025 will be F-35(america’s version of tejas)
It damn sure is the dalit of hindustani air force. Just imposed on the HAF like dalits imposed on brahman dominated society where minorities live in country like they’re given a favour of refugees or something. Every day they have to prove their loyalty to hindustani masters by saying absurd things. The only people owning and ruling the land are hindu upper castes.
S-400 is likely to be inducted in Hindustani military and deployed all along Pakistani border. It will provide a difficult penetration environment but can be taken out in number of ways.
PAK FA is struggling itself and Russia is working on alternative designs now. hindustan probably won’t buy it for now.
Hindustan’s own 5th gen fighter will be ready provided the world is ready to provide 90% of its component by 2050. It does not even make it on the list for another 20 years. Thanks to the incapability of hindustanis.
Hindustan will possibly go for the F-35s since neither israel, nor france is working on any 5th gen fighter. Turkey won’t offer them. Their own program is garbage to even mention. Japan will keep it for own use. Same for south korea which is partially 5th gen. Russia is in trouble with that program. Most likely they will at some point join the F-35 program unless Russia can come up with a sound 5th gen fighter.
Pakistan needs to invest in turkey TFX and put stakes in it.
Good, accurate assessment, Zil but still very subjective I must say. Any Pakistani or any realist will tell you the same. Ask any Indian or any other fantasist and the reality is different. IAF set to overtake China in 5 years, Russia in 10 years and the USAF if 15 years.
Now this is very innocent comment, respecting all norms of respectful discourse. I hope it does not get deleted!
I love your insight. Indians have a habit of putting doubts about “Pride of Pakistan”, but this is the plane that will turn the table (I mean, the balance).We are on our way to completing this project with flying colors and nobody can stop us doing that.
One more thing (as you said already) with JF-17B introduction the chances of selling this fighter is brighter than ever.This plane is poor man’s F-16 and at pretty much one third of F-16 cost with such an array of weapons and no restrictions what so ever. Who could think only ten years ago this plane will be attention of aviation experts and for the right reasons of course !!
What makes you think JF-17 will turn the tables, so as to tilt the balance in favour of PAF? That’s a pretty big statement coming from you. I’d like to know what made you claim that.
It does not measure up on any level with Hindustan’s acquisition of Rafale or F-18s.
French delivery will be slow, as matter of fact very slow as they are producing only 9 a year and India is not first on the list for delivery.
F-18 is a mere proposal, no firm commitment and almost out of question in the light of protracted negotiation, Indian style.
Remember for F-18 to be assembled in India in numbers (in hundreds at least) India will have to buy all .Turkey’s assembled F-16 were sold to Egypt and Turkey AF the number in hundreds and India just cannot buy and assemble Rafael, assemble F-18 and SU-30MKI at the same time for many practical reasons. One is three altogether different planes and cost
JF-17 program when fully realized (275 planes or more) will be game changer in every way, a great platform, springboard for next big fighter program.
Javed, how reliable is this figure of 275 JF-17 for PAF and how many of these to be Block 3?
Quite reliable but evolving at the beginning of every new phase (phase 3 and 4) to what would be available and it could be high as 300 depending on other development such as engine choice / thrust, easa radar,new Chinese mission computer, newer HUD, targeting pods, precision weapons and above all integration of all weapons/systems at Kamra and Changdu takes lots of engineering efforts. Just the naval requirement would bump numbers to over 300. Systems integration is truly a Herculean task it but the experience gained is invaluable.
Thanks for replying. The reason I queried the figure was due to some confusion in my mind stemming from an interview I saw some months ago where, to my understanding at the time, retd. ACM Shahid Lateed said that PAF was looking for a modernised fighter force of between 250 to 300. I had assumed him to mean this to be the TOTAL fighter force and was a little surprised as the figure seems to fall far beneath what can reasonably be anticipated as Pakistan’s minimum requirements in the near future. Another, seemingly well-informed, regular on Quwa told me that he expects the figure of 250 to 300 to be the absolute minimum PAF to maintain at all times DURING the on-going transition to a modernised fleet. I still did not find this a satisfactory explanation. I cannot see PAF letting their guard down so low even for a temporary period. Anyway. to cut a long story short, Shahid Lateef was talking a lot about the JF-17 in the interview so his reference was perhaps only to the JF-17, in which case it correlates perfectly with your information. I have not bothered to go and search the interview again to verify but he may well have clarified this point but I misunderstood at the time or he didn’t clarify as well as perhaps he could have done. Again, thanks for your response.
As I said before our JF-17 numbers are fluid and as the program goes into Phase 3 and beyond things will look clearer even better
My source who did his PhD in EE now working for Kamra and Chengdu is very upbeat about this project and as we have seen all our milestones are completed on time and who would imagine we will have dual-seater that soon or at all. Have you noticed the coverage this plane is getting and Chinese backing.
And who knows we may get J-10/C/D as well as this fighter is making progress at neck break speed and very well suited for our requirements so the combination of F-16/JF-17 and J-10 would be more than adequate in our offensive defense philosophy.
The J-10 option though interesting, the opinion of some Quwaites (as I call the regulars on here) is that there is insufficient capability difference between JF-17 Blk 3 and J-10 to warrant introducing a new platform but who knows what the assessment of PAF leadership is regarding near future requirements and what options they will pursue. Time will tell.
JF-17 sure seems to be maturing into a very capable platform and I eagerly await news of Blk 3. Good to hear you have a reliable, well placed source.
JF-17 is may a stop-gap (I mean shorter life in PAF) but as China on our back with its whole aerospace industry we will have other options like J-31 or J-20 in about 5-7 years as they have already announced either of these their export and Pakistan has been repeatedly mentioned the first outside China. China now a economic and future, emerging aerospace giant will going to change the equation. Have you heard that “China consider us their Israel” . BUT we have to play our cards carefully and put our house in order !!
Yes I have heard that for China, “Pakistan is our Israel” and that is great. Pakistan is also moving closer to Russia and this needs to be managed with a lot of care and focus since this together with China completes the loop of Pakistan’s freedom from depending on Western military tech. Yes or no?
Dassault has doubled production to 24 per year.
Rafales are slow on production lines because orders were falling. They will ramp up. HIndustan will get all 36 fighters in 7 years, 18 in possibly 4 once signed, so it is slow i agree to that part.
F-18 is a strong possibility since theyre both moving closer with eventual F-35 acquisition possible if PAK FA drops out since there is no other 5th gen available for hindustan now.
I still do not understand how can you put JF-17 turning the tables. It’s false. Sorry to say but its the truth.
Gripen NG at present is better than JF-17 but does not trump Rafale in anyway. We should be realistic and not get carried away to be able to do correct analysis. Rafale will a great acquisition to hindustan and PAF ought to give respect to the capability it will bring to hindustani air force.
It’s a different class of fighters in any case.
Pakistan will need SU-35 to counter Rafale to be frank, nothing less.
I agree to disagree. India just cannot have too many different fighters ranging from Russia to France and now (as you said) US F-18 and/ or F-35 back to back, parallel or overlapping each other is completely is out of question and not practical.
We have seen Indian acquisition and it is clear they have maintenance and accident nightmare even with newer planes. From France mirage-2000 to Jaguar, Russia’s long list of newer migs to vintage mig-21/23/27 would keep them busy in along and painful transition.
Indian numbers always look good on paper and sometime scary but JF-17 in sufficient numbers would still be a game changer and turn the table.
Alright what i see is that you’re probably basing your argument purely and only on tactics and warfare strategy.
I’m basing my argument purely on capability offered by Rafale vs. block 52’s or JF-17s. I hope you are not saying that JF-17 technically will be enough of match for a Rafale and that PAF will not need a bigger more capable jet to counter this acquisition, or are you?
I think these are two different things.
Yes PAF has better training, better records, better maintenance, better up time, better pilot to jet ratio, better exposure, more kills, and these are all established facts (not fanboi talk) but capability is another thing.
My argument is based on Indian acquisitions, their present inventory how they are retiring their old fighters, their past record and long “Babu style” negotiations with French for 10 long years and settling for only 36 planes at $244 million a piece. And MLU at later time will suck them dry.
Weapon acquisition specially fighter, the associated weapons, training is a very complex process. Rafael will take long time in IAF because of its sheer sophistication and complexities the challenges to absorb and they have no magic wand . we would have wide enough window to make adequate arrangements to face Rafael.There is no “and”‘if” or “but” about it if we want to stay in the business of defending our beloved country. I am very upbeat about JF-17 and its role in PAF !! Cheers
Thank you. I certainly hope this is your personal opinion only and is not the lines PAF is thinking on because if by any chance it is considering JF-17 to be sufficient for Rafales and or possible F-18s, it’s a warfare disaster in the making.
PAF will need a medium to heavy weight fighter to be able to counter Rafales. A 5th gen platform or an SU-35 by the time Rafales are deployed.
5-7 year time is enough to absorb any fighter into an air force, even for an air force like Hindustani air force.
You are not getting any more F-16s and the ones you have possibly won’t be allowed to be upgraded with 4.5th gen tech.
There will be too much burden on pilots and PAF strategy to cut the gap between its strategy and counter capability. There’s only so far you can go. Eventually capability needs capability.
I’d like PAF to comprehensively beat the threat. Deploy HQ9 to establish area denial to Hindustani air force. Use JF-17 block 3 for light to medium capability. F-16s go in spearhead or support, depending on the time. Fill in the heavy weight capability by purchasing SU-35s. After 2025, start thinking on bringing in J-31 or TFX, which ever is ready to be deployed by 2030.
Tejas has counted 150,000 hours on TATA truck by now.
And we are comparing it to JF-17 19.000 hours? Huh!
Lol the block 1 and block 2 JF17s didn’t have bvr capability . Several other features are missing.AESA radar is on paper as everyone knows the reality of smokey RD 33. If simply deploying bare capability fighters was a criteria F35 would be part of USAF by now.
There is no block 1. All JF-17 are upgraded to block 2 that comes with WVR and BVR capability apart from launching STOW and anti shipping roles. 3 squadrons are in operational deployment. JF-17B is coming end of this year, with block 3 due in 2018. By 2019-2020 PAF will have raised one full squadron of AESA/IRST/HMD/Precision strike equipped block 3. Many features of block 3 will be put on block 2.
Don’t make stories based on your wishes. It’s not hindustani air force we are talking about. CCS does not induct a system unless it is completely ready for exploitation and deployment.
Your comments have no value. Do a meaningful discussion or don’t waste my time. I’m not here to listen to your petty ridicule talk.
Some more info on JF-17B from FG. Excerpt:
The only significant change to the aircraft apart from the extra seat is a dorsal fin that contains an additional fuel tank. This means the JF-17B’s fuel load is comparable to the single seater.
“There is no loss in combat capability with the addition of the extra seat,” says the official.
They will have to use an powerful engine compared to single seat version
Not required to make it work. However new engine is one the cards anyway.
That is probably 190,000 hours.
I wish Rana Tanveer Hussain could be specific. Is it 7 countries or 8 countries or perhaps 7.5? This kind of ambiguity might suit some of the “thara” class Pakistanis (Eg. In response to age query, “yehi koi bees puchees hogi”. (Excuse my Urdu if wrong. Urdu/Punjabi is not my forte)) but does not sound too professional coming from a government minister.
Anyway, now I’ve got my little grumble out the way, the figure even if only 7 is nevertheless interesting. There is possibility of perhaps at least one potential customer as yet not previously mentioned.