Pakistani officials attending this year’s Defence Services Asia (DSA) exhibition told IHS Jane’s that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is actively considering the idea of swapping out the JF-17’s existing turbofan (i.e. RD-93) with either the Klimov RD-33MK or Guizhou WS-13.
In November 2015, the PAF told IHS Jane’s that it was committed to sticking with the RD-93. In fact, representatives from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) even mentioned that talks were underway to bring a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility for the RD-93 to Kamra, hence signaling the PAF’s commitment to working with Klimov (we discussed this in greater detail in an earlier article).
That said, the selection of a lighter and more powerful engine to replace the current RD-93 is a natural step forward, especially for the JF-17. The Klimov RD-33MK is the latest iteration of the RD-33 turbofan, but with a higher thrust output, full authority digital engine control (FADEC), and a lifespan of 4000 hours. The RD-33MK is currently used by the MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-35.
Last year, we had speculated that the JF-17 Block-III could potentially be equipped with a higher thrust turbofan, thus enabling the fighter to boast a higher thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR), especially if a higher proportion of composite materials are incorporated into the airframe. Besides improving the JF-17’s basic performance benchmarks (e.g. speed), an uprated engine could offer the PAF greater flexibility in arming the JF-17 for payload intensive roles, such as air-to-ground and sea missions.
Of the options available, the RD-33MK would seem to be the most seamless, especially considering that it is an evolution of the RD-93, which is a modified RD-33. The evolution in this case could be analogous to the JAS-39 Gripen’s transition from the GE404 to the GE414 (via the Gripen NG). In fact, improvement in thrust is only one benefit. The RD-33MK’s use of FADEC enables for more efficient engine usage, thereby extending time between overhaul (TBO). It is also smokeless.
Some may be familiar with the so-called RD-93MA, which is said to be an upgraded RD-93 in development for the JF-17. It was reported that the RD-93MA’s thrust output would be in the area of 91kN, that is not too far off from the RD-33MK’s 89kN. It is worth noting that the recent Jane’s article lists the RD-33MK’s thrust output at 9.4 tons, which essentially means 92kN. In any case, it is possible that the RD-93MA emerges as a modified RD-33MK.
Some might be wondering about the possibility of adding a thrust-vectoring nozzle (TVN) through the RD-33MK. This is not an aspect the PAF has seriously considered. We can only speculate as to why, but the added costs associated with a TVC-equipped JF-17 (from acquisition to potentially maintenance) are probably not worth the gains, which may not even be enough to offset the challenges of increasingly accurate (as well fast and maneuverable) air-to-air missiles.
The Guizhou WS-13 is noted as an alternative. Specific details about this engine are not easy to come by, at least in English. Fortunately, Georg Mader from Defence Industry Bulletin was able to offer some insight into the WS-13 and its development via a source at the Guizhou Aviation Industry Corporation (GAIC). Like the RD-33MK, the WS-13 has a higher thrust rating compared to the RD-93, it also uses FADEC. Moreover, a Chinese official told IHS Jane’s that the WS-13 was already being test flown on the JF-17.
In the end, the PAF may prefer sticking to Klimov. It is already accustomed to the RD-93, and despite some issues in terms of fuel consumption and TBO, the PAF has praised its durability and reliability. One would expect that the RD-33MK (or RD-93MA) would draw a lot in terms of commonality from the RD-93, and rectify some of its concerns with the RD-93. But although Russia and Pakistan have made some headway in improving their defence ties, China will remain anchored as a time-tested partner, especially given its own strategic concerns in regards to the pressure it is feeling in Pacific Asia. If the WS-13 emerges as a capable solution, the PAF could consider it. In fact, the FC-31 is likely slotted to use the WS-13, which is an important point considering the PAF may use the FC-31 as the basis for its next-generation fighter.
PAF/PAC officials also told IHS Jane’s that the twin-seat JF-17 will likely begin its flight tests in late 2016 and early 2017. Furthermore, the refuelling probe configuration shown in China is the configuration the PAF will be using for its own aircraft. No updates were offered in regards to the JF-17 Block-III.
Ge 404 ^hav fadec with afterburner thrust of 84.7 Kn little more thrust than RD33MK used in Mig29 MKI
Rd93 is among weakest engine as compared to Rd33Mk & ge404 IN20.
You Hindustani just can’t stop obsessing over Pakistan.
This article has nothing to do with Tejas. Keep it out as well as yourself.
RD93 is weakest engine because its maintained by Hindustani air force ill trained technicians that cant keep maintenance levels to required.
PAF knows how to maintain its jets.
There is no comparison between a desi air arm to a world respected air force.
Rd33/93 were all replaced in last decades.
Indian Mig29MkI Iaf version and Mig29UPG naval version (most advanced Mig29 variant which r technically better than block 52+ )uses Rd33Mk
India have been using Rd33Mk for over 15 yrs. HAl manufacturers Rd33Mk in india under license from local raw materials.
You can say whatever gibberish in name of “technically”.
Air warfare is about practicality and actual tactics, on which account PAF outperforms HAF in all aspects ranging from experience, kill count, training, skills, and capabilities.
Any air force that has flown Mig-29s and F-16 block 15 will instead prefer to MLU F-16 rather than opting for Mig-29 in a hundred years.
JF-17 block 3 will out perform all hindustani jets ranging from Mig-29s, Mig-27s, Mig-21s, Jaguars, and Mirage 2000s. That is a state objective for it.
The F-16s block 52+ are more than capable of taking care of any SU-30 version. When in doubt, try sending them.
The only jet that will come close to threatening PAF is the Rafale, to which PAF will provide suitable answer in due time.
go take some lessons as u hv no knowledge of aeronautical engg
jf17 is tin can & mig29 have two of those rd33mk engine while jf flies with 70 era low thrust engine.
Mig29MkI and Mig29upg have radar of range150-200km
They are equipped with 140-150km long rane bvr missile
mirage2000 upgraded version is more advanced than block52
Jaguar upgrade ll make them at par with block 50.
stop living in cukoo land.
india won’t need su30 to fight pak substandard Paf
Yeah? And i suppose you’re the best qualified source for lessons on aeronautics eh?
u r talking abt block 3 which is still in design phase at mercy of chins.
All u can do is ask them to make it for u.kamra doesn’t know definition of r $ d.
Hal already knows what is inside mk1a.
Israel are already happy with 180 elta el-m/2052 aesa radar orders (120 for mk1a and 60 for jaguar)
israel are going to produce aesa radar in Hal while they ll help hal integrate aesa in jaguar and mk1a
better than having the junk of tejas on mercy of dozen suppliers and half dozen countries.
first get it off of that tata truck into air.
mk1 tejas has better engine avionics bvr capabilities & longer range radar once they achieve final FOC in mid year 2016.
Jf17 block 2 has poor engine affecting thrust weight ratio ; avg avionics and its radar is unreliable.
Really doubt its bvr capabilities
your betting is based on your clouded judgement and over zealous self.
betting is for calm and balanced minded people. dont try it.
I was honest in my assertions which are backed by tech spech of engine radar avioincs available for both platform
I didn’t mention electronic warfare, bvr caps,product maturity, no pf missile integrated in fighter where jf have lead.
funny your assertions do not match a bit to hindustan’s own assessments by its air force, the primary stake holder, and the other orgnizations judging tejas.
dont make a joke of yourself.
learn to speak truth.
I m not among those delusional fans who have increased combat range of jf17 to 1350 km which in reality is around 400-500 km as jf carried much less fuel than f16 and Tejas who claim combat radius of 550 & 500 km respectively
It’s not coming from Hindustani media, it comes straight from PAC and CATIC the manufacturers of the jet so yes if anyone is delusional here, chance are thats its you.
keep your confidence in the workshop where it is more needed to get tejas into service. if that kind of resources were available to PAF, the kind hindustan has, PAF would have made JF-17 a monster.
You are pathetic, i say again, and by this i mean HAL this time.
Combat radiue of junk fighter with rd93 which guzzles fuel leaving smoke carrying less fuel than tejas and f16 with more unit consumtion per km can be 1350 km for madrassa audience
Please arrange your defences and strategy for 400 km in mind then.
PAF would not mind that, but please stop shitting your dhoti out.
Oh so u maaderchod jf ferry was due to sending it on a ship to Farnborough and paris. It is accepted by even the indian aviation experts that jf has twice ROA than ur tweety bird being bigger and having more fuel. Tejas is best a point defence fighter. Now suck it up and shut up.
lol .now u made ur own story about indian expert
Even a school student can find out exaggerated spec of that dumped mig33 aka lunkfighter17
dumboo don’t know diff between ferry and combat radius.
don’t expect logical discussion from madrasaa educated
So a platform that is operational for last 5 yearsin paf has unreliable radar, avionics and a poor engine, which btw has a superb safety record, not having a single crash due engine in past 8 years of induction; but a tweety bird which is yet to attain foc and yet to be produced and yet to be inducted in iaf, has better avionics, better radar, better bvr, better this and better that. Wonder then why iaf has been forced upon by modi and his toadies to buy it rather than IAF choosing it by itself. Stop jerking off plz. U will kill urself.
ask ur mod to explain all shortcomings I mentioned
jf17 avg flying hours is way below Normal inducted plane such as f16
its engine ll at max last 2200hours.
THis is what klimov says as rd93 was made from same rd33 core modifying some gearboxes whicj halved its life time from 4000 hr to 2200hours
kamra genius engg may hv used roohani kuwat to make them impeccable
So now u indian scum has knowledge of reports from mod and also knows how much avg hours JF are flying. If u knew who i was, u wud not have said this. Well, i will not indulge into any more specifics here. But rest a sure, jf ate generating more flying hours ler engine per aircraft than either mirages or f7s of PAF. So jf are indeed a great success story of PAF.
Now where did u say u were on Tweety bird, oh i am sorry ur gen 4++ Tejas.
mirage engine last more than 3000 hours
indian old mig29 with rd93/rd33 series 1 engine lasted 1000hours.
series 2 had some improvements but rd33mk & series 3 boast of 4000hours which too is very unlikely.
pak have barely flown 700-800 hours /jf17
see how ur jf17falls from eye once u get into 1200-1500hours.
Klimov official statement on rd93 life duration is 2200hours so u must subtract 25-30% from Russian hardware
You have to wrjte shit that what ur paid for. Nothing useful. As i said u dont know who u r engaging with. So i can just laugh off at these figures with pleasure knkwing indians are dumbfounded about their information on jf. Thats good fom war point of view
ask ur mod as my sources reveal around 25000logged hours which is less than 500 hours/unit aircraft
junk fighter17 block 1 & 2 versions are nothing more than mig21++
Oh yah sure. With bvr capability, 200 km anti ship strike missile, datalink, moving map displays, auto nav, air intercept radar, ew suite, they are mig 21++. Now u can jerkoff and have good sleep
The plane leaves residuak smoke from its crappie rd93:engine making them easiest bunny of all fighter aircraft
well one thing thats wrong is its mig 29k not mig29mki
jf17 is poorly designed tin aluminum can; poorer than even substandard tejas in agility radar avioincs and engine
Comparison of tejas and jf with mig29 ll be
By the way mig29 have two of those rd33mk engine while jf flies with 70 era low thrust rd93 engine.
Aluminium can… Thats a good one. Lets have ur praises about bedroom warrior tweety bird tejas
i guess that was your brother in arms referring to it as Mig29 MKI, not me or you are dyslexic. Turn to him with your guns and dont forget to take aeronautics lessons from him. apprently he is going frustrated on giving them.
my mistake: I extrapolated it’s name from engine Rd33MK but I meant K or KI
now make excuses lol
why dont you just edit the comment and say “i never said that”. lol.
i mean i would expect all sorts of fabrications from you,
true pak will face mig 29 which are positioned at airbases towards Pakistan not Su 30
i think pakistanis are better informed than hindustanis about their own deployments. pick a map. every deployment of su30 squadrons is known. majority is under western, central, and south western air command.
Mig 29 dont have thefuel to go beyond border. Its either going to be su 30, mirages or jaguars
mig29 have true combat radius of 700-800km . it may be less than 2-3 times exaggerated junk fighter17 range of 1350 km
anyway pak is not that wide & mig29upg and mig29k ll takr down all f16 including block52 from 130-140km range
As i said u are a cheap raw analyst, a failed sleuth or field agent now a desk job paid to give responses, no matter how stupid. Ur answer says it all. So u think if there 2 engines then range will be more. So how do u explain miarge or f16s having 3 times the combat radius of russian tin junk mig 29. ITS BECAUSE OF MORE FUEL AND EXTERNAL WINGTANKS U MORON. UR SHITTY IAF MIGS CARRY JUST A TEENYWEENY CENTRELINE TANK. thats the reason.
JF carries 3 external wing tanks with 6000 lbs extra fuel u moron. Stol waisting my time.
No more stupid replies
moron is so dumbfagged that he is replying to wrong person
mig29 without any extra fuel in pylon has range of 700km
so stop comparing apple with oranges
As far as both are from same shitty place, i dont consider u different. U blackees scums are all the same
mig29 without any extra fuel in pylon has range of 700km
mig29 can carry much bigger external fuel tank than junk fighter as its payload is 1.5 times more
so stop comparing apple with oranges
Take down blk 52 or MLU ?
My question is,
WITH WHAT HINDU DUMBOOO
mig29 have more powerful radar and almost 1.5-2 times bvr range than block 52
Which bvr. Some indian shit called astra or ur reffering to 30 miles r77 adder
astra is undr mass production.
r77 block 2 has range of 110+km
R77 adderWITH IAF IS ANOTHER FAILED RUSSIAN JUNK MISSILE. REASON WHY IAF IS SO DESPERATE TO BUY WESTERN FIGHTERS WITH WESTERN MISSILE.
IN 2007, IAF FIRED AND TESTED 6 ADDERS, FYI ONLY 1 CONNECTED ON A TARGET THAT TOO IN ACTIVE RANGE , TAIL ON. REST ALL FAILED TO ENAGE NON MANEUVERING TARGETS AT LESS THAN 20 MILES.
Now i dont have to talk about war tested amraams. Iaf is defensive in air to air combat.
Adder seaker is a failure. Mkron, fyi Alamo AA10C is a better missile than adder, though semi active, in terms of longer ranges. Scumbag
dumboss astra have become matured products with 6-7 version upgrade since 2006.
its at par with russia bvraam missile and astra mk2 ll have 35 km terminal seeker range made locally with dual pulse engine of range 100-130km
india is working on 2 facet approach
keep building local r&d while don’t compromise on quality with simultaneous imports
Mig 29 twin engine range>>>>>jf 17 single engine
So indians think if there 2 engines then range will be more. So how do u explain miarge or f16s having 3 times the combat radius of russian tin junk mig 29. ITS BECAUSE OF MORE FUEL AND EXTERNAL WINGTANKS U MORON. UR SHITTY IAF MIGS CARRY JUST A TEENYWEENY CENTRELINE TANK. thats the reason.
JF carries 3 external wing tanks with 6000 lbs extra fuel u moron. Stop waisting my time.
No more stupid replies
Modi toady, please tell me what is tejas capability right now that out performs and i will sure shoot ur tweety down with JF thunder.
wow…changed the entire answer after posting it and getting my response.
I guess i gave you a good spanking this time.
u r pathetic.
No, this is not the good spanking you dished out. Your response to why JF-17 did not participate in the Bahrain Air Show was THE mother of all spankings. The usual metre long counter-response was reduced to an irrelevant 1 sentence squeal!
there wasn’t ever a single statement from PAF offical which shows that was ever that JF-17 going to be participating in the Bahrain Air show only hype was created by Indian media
The perhaps really was no intent on the PAF to participate in the show. The Eastern neighbour fabricates fibs better than anything else under the Made In India drive.
Better than blk 52 P&W 229 engines with 29000 lbs of thrust. How do u qualify ur statement please specify….. Anything indian just does not qualify to be automatically better. There is no comparison of PW engines with russian crude tech. I am sorry not agreed From any angle.
Even f16s dont have fadec, only DEEC. Does it really stop pilots from a free handling of engine all attitudes and aoa, no it does not. Does the engine work and optmises its thrust for every level, airspeed, aoa and attitudes, yes it does.
Fadec just gives even more control to computer of engine for anti surge control and better rpm control, nothing significant from DEEC. JF 17 rd 93 has DEEC unlike indian rd 33.
india is using all fadec variant of rd33mk
Dont lie so profusely
Deec is russian term for fadec and Rd93 doesn’t have fadec/deec.
go and read on klimov spec
quote:Sarkisev engines (RD-33K) are equipped with full authority digital electronic engine controls (DEEC)
Aawwwww… Well, then this may really come as a surprise, and please dont cry, THAT JF HAS DIGITAL ELECTRONIC ENGINE CONTROL. reason why it has been desiganted as RD 93, not only because of different location engine gear box but because it has DEEC. And its DEEC. Which means its a d.. k for u.
And what is that i am lying about. If its hard to absord, just go f.. k urself in a delhi or bombay slum.
Visit kimov site and u ll know what rd93 contain. They have categorised all diff series engine family of Rd33
its only K series which has deec/fadec.
One reply modi toady. Guess it will come as a heart attack when u finally come to know that jf has deec on Rd 93. Wish i cud share my profession with u shitty scumbag
Even sunni madrass pilots have no clue of tech they r using.
ur cricketers common knowledge and post speech presentation show how educated u people r.
The characteristics of Indian MiG-29 upgrade (mig29 UPG)
was confirmed by TsAMTO analytic center in Russia.
Engines RD-33 ser 3 with BARK-88 FADEC and KSU-941UB removed control system.
Rd series 33 series 3 engine is the only rd33 engine with bark-88 fadec.
Hal koraput manufacturing series 3 engine.
Pak doesn’t realise that promoting jf17 as exportable aircraft doesn’t augur well with russia
pak is not buying mega bill$ weapons so why shall russia risk its business for 3-4mill$ engine which have low margin of returns
y shall russsian klimov sell Rd33Mk which are only used in latest mig29MS and MKI version which provides russia with 50 mill $ sale.
Rd33Mk is premium product and I don’t see russia selling them to pak as long as Mig29 are in demand for asian and african market
currently mig29 sold in 30-40mill $ price only have rd33 series3 but russian are promoting rd33mk in all of new mig29 offers.
Mig35 also use same engine
why would this. why would that….yada yada…
It’s all happening under your jealous noses.
It’ll depend on Russia.
That said, arms sales are largely driven by geo-political and strong economic realities, and Pakistan isn’t even a minnow in that realm, much less a threat to any Russian product. If the Russians are losing out markets to “cheeni sub-par MiG-21s” like JF-17, then their problem isn’t JF-17, it is China. Moreover, China has as much of an incentive to push its other products, such as FC-20 and L-15, as it does the JF-17.
At the end of the day, the JF-17 is a program to meet the unique needs and limitations of Pakistan. Russia knows this as well, hence it will not be looking at the potential sale of RD-33MK from the angle of JF-17 threatening its commercial prospects, but from the reality that its inclusion will help the PAF.
Also, the PAF and PAC wouldn’t even be entertaining the discussion if at some point Klimov and the Russian Gov’t didn’t raise it as a possibility for them.
Some useful comment…. departure from ur usual cheeni vs indian vs pak tech comparison…. Stay like this if u want some quality discussions
Doesn’t bode well as they’ll lose the cash from the paf to China by focusing on the ws 13. And half a loaf is better than no loaf at all considering the lack of mig sales.
admin deliberately missed the point on ihs RD33mk has 4000hrs life whereas chinese copy has mere 2000hrs interesting to see which one will be used
russsian rd93 too have 2200hours life while cheeni copy is too unstable. something around 500-1000hours
You should be thankful for Americans for providing Hindustanis with the GE engine for Teja. I mean the only thing actually working in the that dump truck is its American engine.
Had it been for the abandoned Kaveri, it would not even have been able to get down from that tata truck.
There we go again with a stinky blackee spam from RAW
Not sure what you want to say but it’s mentioned in the article. Read again.
Increased thrust comes with trade offs. It affects the life span and maintenance requirements.
Does it matter if the life span is reduced to 2200 hrs? Tell me how and why?
Credible stats for the WS-13 are difficult to find, even the bit quoted by Jane’s is from Russian defence industry sources. So *in addition* to engine life, I also “deliberately missed” the thrust, weight, etc.
I hope the PAF stays away from TVC nozzles for another reason. I’ve heard that TVC has little to no use in actual battle. Throwing of your AoA to such extremes. unbalancing your aerodynamics and forward momentum, means losing a LOT of energy for an aircraft, and losing energy means you’re a sitting duck. Besides, what’s the point of it anyway with high-off-boresight WVRAAMs + HMDS?
Yep. If anything, effort should be made towards reducing the JF-17’s IR signature, this is where a smokeless engine is absolutely vital. The TVC nozzle is useless, except maybe for March 23rd 😉
A JF-17 engineer told me the smoke trail problem has been fixed. I can’t remember the details, but I think he said the RD93 being installed on the Block II have been modded.
Well it’s certainly useless on poor aerodynamics of jf 17 but absolutely vital for Flankers
Indian air force beat British eurofighter 12-0(rainbow exercise ) also they beat Americans f 15s and f 16s in cope India exercise both in WVR combat thanks to TVC and IRST
An F-15 instructor has said the Flanker’s TVC isn’t useful and the Flankers were comprehensively defeated when the got State side, by experienced F-15 and Viper pilots (the video is on youtube) and the British have denied the 12-0 claim.
12-0 claim by hindustani air force was a farce and later exposed by hindustani air force apology.
Hindustani air force is receiving hearty laughs in RAF and USAF debriefs.
why dont world’s most respected airforce participate in any such exercise
indian flankers,jaguars and C 17 are this year going to participate in Alaska Red flag exercise starting from april 28
The world’s most respected air force not only participates in all such exercises from time to time, but also takes the hell out of its opponents, everytime is goes there. It’s not most respected for nothing. It’s held in highest regard in USAF and other best air forces around the world.
It’s just that the world’s most respected air force is not into cheap publicity and fabricating claims that never happen or which are laughed upon in debriefs and end up seeing apologies issued.
That is the reason it is a respected air force.
We’ll wait for the fabrications from red flag this time around too. Keep me updated.
And that comes from the basis of your aeronautical expertise? It’s not a badly designed platform at all. Has an interesting mix of design philosophies from the 70 onwards.
And yes yes even I’ve heard of that rant about the sukhoi. Was shot down both times by the participating air forces. It’s about as good in its class as the thunder. Troll away.
TVC is best suited for 5th gen fighters. It is not entirely pointless.
On JF-17 there is more point in getting a supercruise capability to it than TVC.
The Grippen NG has the GE414G for supercruise, which has much better thrust and pressure ratios that the RD-33/93. If we wanna stay away from Western engines, which we definitely should, then forget about supercruise for a while.
Neither TVC nor supercruise is coming to JF-17 in foreseeable furture. But if ever a possibility arises, then supercruise should and will take the priority.
Other than the risk of sanctions, there is actually no reason to stay away from western engines.
The PAF shouldn’t worry too much on physical parameters at this point, that boat sailed the day the first JF-17 prototype rolled out. It should just focus on getting the best radar, ECM/EW, and munitions suite for the JF-17 that it possibly can. For everything else, focus on the FC-31.
true. 100% agreed.
Mohsin you a expert on engines